[Timo]

I just came across this article about the Venus Project in Central Florida. I'd never heard of it, but apparently, a lot of people have. Reading through this, i was struck by the founder's mention of the eventuality of government by a computer, rather than people. The computer would allocate resources as needed to maintain a healthy, sustainable equilibrium between humans and the carrying capacity of their environment. All decisions would be subjectively measured.That reminds me of the Robert Heinlein novel, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. The Earth and it's lunar colony were run by a CGI image of a human, rather than a real person, much like Max Headroom back in the 80s.

"Fresco's 100th birthday bash, held days earlier at a convention center in Fort Myers, drew more than 600 fans. For them, these rounded retro structures in the wilds of Florida are a hint of what could be: a master plan for a City of the Future without money, a place where all needs are met by technology. That city, Fresco says, will be run not by politicians but by a central computer that will distribute resources as needed. It's a vision he's been working on for most of his life. “A machine doesn’t have emotions,” Fresco likes to say. “It’s not susceptible to corruption.” Social engineering and favorable living circumstances will ensure that people act responsibly toward one another."

Yes, the founder is 100 years old, and is still going strong. Here's the link to the entire article.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-10/the-100-year-old-man-who-lives-in-the-future
The Venus Project is an attempt at creating a Utopian enclave, utilizing available resources to build everything, rather than building beyond the environment's capacity to provide. This does sound ideal, and who knows? Maybe he's on to something. Give it a read, and 'cuss it here.

[Cog]

"Social engineering and favorable living circumstances will ensure that people act responsibly toward one another."

I don't really need to read any further than this.

[Timo]

Then you will be excluded.

[Cog]

I'm crushed.

[Timo]

I'm sure you are.

[onlooker]

Considering where we stand now and what a mess we have made of the planet, I for one knowing all this in retrospect would have been voting for the AI since at least the 1970's haha.

[Cog]

If all you utopians want to run off to a fantasy community then I am all for it.

[onlooker]

If all you utopians want to run off to a fantasy community then I am all for it.

Utopia? We are just looking for some sanity in this world

[Timo]

Before anyone casts any superficial judgements of this alternative viewpoint, scratch the surface, and take a look underneath to see what you're dismissing as pure fantasy. Everything i've seen from the Venus Project reflects almost 100% of the discussion in nearly every single thread we discuss here at PO. Seriously! Take a look. You don't have to buy into their vision, but that vision is highly reflective of what we talk about here. The only real difference is that it's not here. It's there, and it's also being proactive in trying to get something done. As i said in the title of this thread, it's a different perspective.

And it most certainly IS NOT the LENR!!!

[Cog]

Against my better judgment I read the article. This is absolutely prophetic about any utopia community who wants to insulate themselves against the Mad Max outside.

“There will be a lot of people getting shot, including me,” he says wryly. “I’m surprised I haven’t been shot already.”

Every single man, woman, and child who seeks to insulate themselves in such a utopia are going to be butchered. This visionary should have at least a rudimentary defensive plan in place. He does not. A dreamer and fool.

[KaiserJeep]

Jacque Fresco is a systems engineer greatly influenced by architects Paolo Soleri and Buckminster Fuller. Soleri coined the term arcology (architecture + ecology), and Fuller was a futurist and inventor of the geodesic dome. Fresco actually drafted many of their concepts during a time when drafting meant getting hunchbacked over a drafting table making technical drawings on paper with pencils. He also built models of many of their concepts. Then he struck out on his own and founded the Venus Project in the late '80's or early '90's, about 15 years after I studied him in Engineering 101, an introduction to engineering process.

All three were considered "fringe" minds then. I was amused to be updated on Fresco in a "60 Minutes" article in 2011.

Note that after decades of trying and making hundreds of pencil sketches and dozens of models, Fresco has yet to produce and sell a commercially successful building design.

[Cog]

The guy who is freak who got fired from every job he ever had. No wonder dreamers and utopians love the guy.

His wiki speaks volumes about his failures in life. This article praising him is just one more in a long list of fail.

Course I can't consider him a total failure. He charges $200 a person to visit his personal Venus compound. Maybe he did learn a bit about capitalism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacque_Fresco

[Plantagenet]

... the eventuality of government by a computer, rather than people. The computer would allocate resources as needed to maintain a healthy, sustainable equilibrium between humans and the carrying capacity of their environment.

Who will be in charge of programming the computer?



AND wouldn't that computer programmer inevitably write the code so the MASTER COMPUTER will say that computer programmers are very very important people and so must receive the largest allocation of resources?

[Timo]

Jacque Fresco is a systems engineer greatly influenced by architects Paolo Soleri and Buckminster Fuller. Soleri coined the term arcology (architecture + ecology), and Fuller was a futurist and inventor of the geodesic dome. Fresco actually drafted many of their concepts during a time when drafting meant getting hunchbacked over a drafting table making technical drawings on paper with pencils. He also built models of many of their concepts. Then he struck out on his own and founded the Venus Project in the late '80's or early '90's, about 15 years after I studied him in Engineering 101, an introduction to engineering process.

All three were considered "fringe" minds then. I was amused to be updated on Fresco in a "60 Minutes" article in 2011.

Note that after decades of trying and making hundreds of pencil sketches and dozens of models, Fresco has yet to produce and sell a commercially successful building design.

OK then, I'm glad you actually know about the founder of the Venus Project! I also don't discount what you point out about his inability (failure?) to actually sell any of his products or visions. Actually, according to his visionary principles, i doubt "selling" his products or plans would be the appropriate term, but regardless, in your opinion, under what scenario do you think his products would start to become commercially plausible. I use the word "commercially" very loosely. Perhaps the better way to phrase that question is what would have to happen in our world to get us to pay attention to what he's been developing for the past 50 years?

[Outcast_Searcher]

... the eventuality of government by a computer, rather than people. The computer would allocate resources as needed to maintain a healthy, sustainable equilibrium between humans and the carrying capacity of their environment.

Who will be in charge of programming the computer?



AND wouldn't that computer programmer inevitably write the code so the MASTER COMPUTER will say that computer programmers are very very important people and so must receive the largest allocation of resources?

Plant, you beat me to the point about the programmer.

The programmer's ideas/beliefs are going to very likely influence the decision points in the code for allocating resources.

I would expect a very different allocation from an Ayn Rand type than a Karl Marx type. "Fairness" is NOT an objective thing.

OTOH, as long as the code were peer reviewed and deemed "reasonable and correct" ahead of time, it wouldn't be corruptible, unlike politicians.

[yellowcanoe]

AND wouldn't that computer programmer inevitably write the code so the MASTER COMPUTER will say that computer programmers are very very important people and so must receive the largest allocation of resources?

I'm not really seeing a problem with that...

[Outcast_Searcher]

I just came across this article about the Venus Project in Central Florida. I'd never heard of it, but apparently, a lot of people have. Reading through this, i was struck by the founder's mention of the eventuality of government by a computer, rather than people. The computer would allocate resources as needed to maintain a healthy, sustainable equilibrium between humans and the carrying capacity of their environment. All decisions would be subjectively measured.

Interesting, Timo. Thanks for the post/link.

One question. By context, I presume you mean "objectively" measured, and not "subjectively" measured?

(The nightmare scenario for such a scheme (run by humans) if the allocation is done subjectively is given in Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" where two sisters allocate resources according to "the need" and work according to "how great the ability" (mocking a quote popularized by Karl Marx), so those who whined a lot got a lot and what one accomplished had no correlation to what they earned.)

Since unless I missed it, the article didn't discuss the details of the resource allocation, only implied (unrealistically IMO) that it would be fair and accepted by all, so the subjective vs. objective measurement is a fundamental issue.

[onlooker]

The programmer's ideas/beliefs are going to very likely influence the decision points in the code for allocating resources.

Supposedly, the universally agreed to objective would be to create a sustainable society. The computer would simply be measuring, distilling and tabulating numbers in regards to resources, population etc. Based upon that it would produce a quota of available resources. The larger issue though which you touch on is valid. Who controls the actual computer, where it is housed etc. If the Computer is integral to the running of society then its value is immeasurable and must be guarded from interlopers, sabotage, hacking, theft etc.

[GHung]

"There was war... convulsions... the world was destroying itself. Landru saw the truth; he changed the world."
– Reger, 2267 ("The Return of the Archons")

Landru was first a man, and then a machine.

In approximately 4000 BC, war threatened to destroy the planet Beta III and its inhabitants. The leader at that time was a gifted engineer and philosopher, Landru. He believed the way to preserve his people was to take them back to a time of peace and tranquility. He sought to end war, crime, disease – all of the evils that plagued his world, and to produce "the unity of good" – a world without hate, without fear, without conflict. To that end, he built and programmed a sophisticated machine, which took on his identity.

The machine Landru built was powerful enough to manage the affairs of an entire planetary population. It ruled Beta III for about 6,000 years, managing the affairs of each individual and striving to meet the ambitious goals its builder set it. Its subjects were oblivious to the fact that they were ruled by a computer. Since Landru was hidden behind a solid wall, it is likely that its builder intended this; even millennia later, some of the citizens of Beta III believed the Landru who ruled their world was the same one who saved it so many centuries ago, and none realized it was a machine. The passing years of peaceful rule had inculcated in the people a kind of reflexive worship of Landru. This could be seen even in members of the underground who sought freedom and actively opposed Landru's will......

http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Landru



It's OK Cog. Kirk and Spock will take care of it.