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Why Cap and Trade Doesn’t Work

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Why Cap and Trade Doesn’t Work

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 19 Mar 2016, 22:33:11

Why Cap and Trade Doesn’t Work
Ever wonder why carbon taxes don’t reduce carbon emissions?

By Jason Scott Johnston – 3.18.16

Many people, including many highly trained economists, seem to think the economics of decarbonizing the U.S. economy are simple and straightforward. Reduce the use of fossil fuels for producing goods and services by imposing taxes equal to the estimated economic cost of the CO2 emissions generated by their production. Increase the production and use of power from wind and solar by subsidizing power from these sources.

The actual impacts of such taxes and subsidies are not this simple. Consider first the tax side. A carbon tax is intended to increase prices of goods or services whose production generates CO2 emissions, lowering demand and ultimately production and emissions. But in the U.S., demand for many carbon-intensive things — such as gasoline for automobiles and electricity for heating and cooling — is highly inelastic. This means higher prices don’t significantly reduce the number of miles that people drive or how much electricity they use. What higher prices for carbon intensive goods and services will almost certainly do is to severely punish poor and middle class households with higher costs for life’s necessities — like driving to work and heating the house, leaving less money for truly discretionary spending.

If carbon taxes do more than this, and actually reduce CO2 emissions, then they actually may succeed too well. A major justification for carbon taxes is that the revenues from such taxes can be used to lower other taxes that distort incentives while allowing funding of public services to remain unaffected. But as the history of state cigarette taxes — used to fund public schools — shows, once governments become dependent on a tax source, their incentive is to increase the tax level to get more funding, even if the data show that this increase may not be achieving its ostensible aim.

Indeed, if CO2 emissions did not fall or even increased — as would happen if by some miracle the future U.S. economy somehow escaped its Obama-era no growth doldrums — the pressure to increase carbon taxes would be enormous. But if producers of coal, oil, and natural gas and other carbon intensive goods and services were to expect higher future carbon taxes, and hence lower future revenues, then they would have an incentive to produce as much as possible now. In this way, the imposition of a carbon tax could very plausibly increase current CO2 emissions.

The flip side of this coin consists of subsidies for or mandated use of renewable energy sources of electric power. These are ostensibly designed to create incentives for a long-term transition toward renewables and away from fossil fuel energy sources. As experience in Germany has shown, however, subsidies for wind and solar not only punish consumers with massive increases in electricity prices, but perversely can ultimately require subsidies for thermal, fossil fuel-fired power plants.

The economics behind this is illuminated by an excellent recent report by the Swiss firm Finadvice. In Germany, producers of electricity from renewable energy sources get fixed price subsidies for power produced called Feed-In Tariffs (FIT’s). Costing more than $412 billion to date, and estimated (by former German Minister of the Environment Peter Altmeier) to end up costing $884 billion by 2022, the German FIT has been so high that it has doubled household electricity prices in Germany since 2000, with taxes and charges (subsidies) increasing from 25 percent of total price in 1998 to 40 percent in 2012.

Logically enough, the German FIT has also has induced massive increases in solar and wind power production capacity. To utilize all the new renewable power, the German power grid operators are in the process of spending up to an additional $40 billion on a new national transmission line network. But this cost (also to be paid by electricity consumers) is actually much less a problem than is the impact of subsidized solar and wind power on power markets.

When available, solar and wind power have zero variable cost to produce (as there is no fuel cost). With a guaranteed, high FIT and no variable cost, solar and wind producers flood the market with cheap power when they have it, lowering prices paid to power producers. Wind and solar producers can sell power at such low prices and stay in business because the government has paid all or most of their fixed costs.

But wind and solar power is, to stress again, only intermittently available. Indeed, in Germany, at most, wind and solar supply about one-third of average daily power consumption. To ensure a steady electric power supply, the Germans rely for backup power production on old style, thermal plants powered with coal. But these old style, fossil-fueled thermal plants cannot realize economies of scale when they are being used as backup. Their average costs go up when they are used less often. With thermal power average costs going up but renewable driven prices plummeting, the Germans face the prospect of having to subsidize old style coal burning plants in order to ensure that they survive in order to cover the two-thirds of power demand that wind and solar leave unmet.

Apparently surprised by the massive in increase in solar and wind power capacity induced by the high FIT, in 2012, the German government announced that in the future, the FIT will fall and a cap will be imposed on overall power production under the FIT program. Given the long lifetimes of power plants, if developers believe that this policy is credible, then they have every incentive to build even more capacity today, before the FIT goes down and the capacity cap is imposed. This would actually increase the need to subsidize backup coal power production.

Whether one is considering carbon taxes or renewable energy subsidies, the impact of such a policy is almost surely to increase prices for the basic energy and transportation necessities of life, harming especially the poor and middle class. If, as in Germany, renewables subsidies require subsidies for coal-burning power plants, and if, as economics predicts, expectations of a permanent and rising carbon tax generate increases in present day CO2 emissions, then where will be the environmental benefits to justify the enormous burden put on poor and middle class households? It would seem that the case for carbon taxes and renewables subsidies is not so simple after all.


http://spectator.org/articles/65824/why-cap-and-trade-doesn't-work
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Re: Why Cap and Trade Doesn’t Work

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 19 Mar 2016, 22:56:25

KaiserJeep wrote:
Why Cap and Trade Doesn’t Work
Ever wonder why carbon taxes don’t reduce carbon emissions?

By Jason Scott Johnston – 3.18.16

Many people, including many highly trained economists, seem to think the economics of decarbonizing the U.S. economy are simple and straightforward. Reduce the use of fossil fuels for producing goods and services by imposing taxes equal to the estimated economic cost of the CO2 emissions generated by their production. Increase the production and use of power from wind and solar by subsidizing power from these sources.

Well, shouldn't we see something REMOTELY CLOSE TO THIS level of taxation on fossil fuels such as gasoline and diesel in the US (instead of practically zero) before proclaiming that these taxes don't work?

It's like theorizing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Hard to get much data until you find an angel or two.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Why Cap and Trade Doesn’t Work

Unread postby Cog » Sat 19 Mar 2016, 23:52:36

Let's raise taxes and see if it works?


Seems this is along the lines of we had to pass the ObamaCare bill to see what is inside it.
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Re: Why Cap and Trade Doesn’t Work

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 19 Mar 2016, 23:54:44

Outcast_Searcher, where do YOU live where you don't pay gas taxes? Here in Kalifornia we paid an average of $2.596 per US gallon last week, with taxes included to the tune of $1.00 to $1.12 which is more than a third. These are broken down as follows:

$0.39 per gallon State Excise Tax
$0.32 to $0.45 per gallon Sales Tax (Local - city or county taxes)
$0.10 per gallon "Cap and Trade fee" (State, applied at wholesale, so the wholesaler increases price $0.10 per gallon)
$0.184 per gallon Federal Excise Tax

These taxes are 38% to 43% of the total gasoline price depending on sales tax which depends on where in the state you live. Not as much as Europe perhaps, but not "practically zero".

The example given in the article above is carbon taxes in Germany which did indeed double the cost of electricity to poor and middle class consumers in that country.

Here in California, we ended up doing the same thing to a lesser extent using solar PV power. First they applied a tax on retail electricity which was a flat rate tax of 15%, regardless of the consumer size. Then they provided tax deduction incentives for putting solar panels on the roof of a residence. But housing in Kalifornia is so expensive, only the upper-middle and higher income classes own a residence - the lower incomes were all renters. So the tax intended to stimulate solar energy ended up doing so - but the tax burden was borne by the lower incomes who had to pay increased electricity rates without any access to tax rebates for installing solar PV panels.

Two examples where taxes intended to stimulate renewable energy ended up having unfortunate results - even the opposite of the intended results.
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Re: Why Cap and Trade Doesn’t Work

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Sun 20 Mar 2016, 03:44:52

Free solar panels for low-income CA homeowners, funded by cap & trade system

The Golden State is investing some of its carbon cap & trade fees into clean energy for low income homeowners through a partnership with the nonprofit Grid Alternatives.

http://www.treehugger.com/solar-technol ... ystem.html

In Australia

Rooftop solar uptake still highest in low-income Australia
Just in case we needed any more evidence to debunk the myth that rooftop solar was a plaything of the rich – or middle class welfare – a new and detailed analysis of solar installations in Australia has shown that lower income families and regional communities are the nation’s most likely to put solar systems on their roofs.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2014/rooftop ... alia-63263
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Re: Why Cap and Trade Doesn’t Work

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 20 Mar 2016, 06:04:09

SM, by that definition, I am "disadvantaged", because I own my home and am now retired and my income is less than 80% of the median around here. Point of fact, I do have a solar roof and I got it for free, paid for by the 15% electricity surcharge that every consumer has to pay. It was literally a $0 down deal, a solar "power purchase agreement". I signed over the Federal and State solar tax credits, and they installed a solar roof which has so far saved me about $5400 in electricity charges.

With the median home price in the SF bay area around $650,000, how many "low income homeowners" do you think we have? Around here, people lose their homes when they decide to feed themselves, or pay for medical treatment, rather than pay real estate taxes set to the extremely low Proposition 13 tax rates of 20/30/40 years ago. Trust me, solar panels is not something any of the very very few "low income homeowners" are buying. That particular bullet missed completely, although it was a great thing back when I had a six figure income, and added about 10% to the value of my home. It troubles me sometimes that most of the "other peoples money" that paid for my solar PV roof was extorted from those who could not afford it - but I didn't make the rules, the politicians did.
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Re: Why Cap and Trade Doesn’t Work

Unread postby careinke » Sun 20 Mar 2016, 06:40:30

First off the title is stupid. He is not talking about Cap and Trade at all (which I would like to know about). He is talking a carbon tax. These are two separate things. Then he brings in a whole other topic, subsidies for non carbon producing energy sources. If he can't tell the difference between a carbon tax and Cap And Trade, I'm not so sure I trust the rest of his analysis without checking, even though it sounds plausible.

Now on to his real topic, carbon taxes and subsidies for non carbon energy sources especially solar and wind.

I believe government subsidies always hurt the intended target as the subsidy invariably raises the price of the product while simultaneously decreasing its efficiency. Some common examples: Higher education, public education, health care, biofuels, housing for the poor and middle class, etc, etc. So I believe it is a mistake to subsidize non fossil fuel energy technologies, especially from carbon taxes.

Now for the carbon tax. I believe a carbon tax at the well head/coal mine could be the most effective way to wean us off of ff in the quickest manner possible. I also believe it could address the "fairness" issues on both sides in several different ways. Here is how I would set it up with several variations:

First off I would tax all Fossil Fuels at their source based on carbon content. Actually, I would prefer to tax all "mining" of all nonrenewable resources but that's another topic. I would also place a tariff on all carbon fuels and the CO2 cost of products crossing into our border including aircraft, vessels and trucks. The exception to this would be if the country of origin had a similar tax. Then trade between us would have no tariffs. Then I would raise the tax by 20% per year, forever. This would apply to all my scenarios. It lets everyone know that FFs are going to become prohibitively expensive in the near future, so start figuring out alternatives that will work for you.

Now the hard part, what to do with the money? Since my bottom line goal is to drastically reduce man made CO2 emissions, the tax alone will take care of that problem. But what about the money?

SOLUTION A. The simplest solution is to divide it up equally between all US citizens over the age of 18 and give it back to them. The poor have a significantly smaller carbon footprint than the rich, so would probably get more back than they pay out. The rich, did not get rich by being stupid, and will rapidly discover ways to not use FFs. Even though this plan is advantageous to all, (like maybe saving mankind), I would expect opposition from the right because it would be seen as stealing from some to give to another. At the very least, it would be a hard sell.

SOLUTION B. Another option would be to return everybody enough of the money to cover the carbon tax up to say twice the poverty level. Then use the remaining money to eliminate other taxes such as the income tax, or maybe even all corporate taxes for business done inside the US. This is my favorite option except I would also have a sales tax on all new goods (but not increasing like the carbon tax). So combined with the carbon tax, ALL other taxes could be done away with. Lets face it in the first world, our biggest impact on the environment is our overconsumption. How do you reduce it? You tax it of course.

SOLUTION C. OK, this one is way out there but give it some thought. How about we follow solution B, but give back enough of the consumption taxes so every US citizen over the age of 18 gets twice the official poverty rate. At the same time, eliminate Social Security, food stamps, unemployment compensation, minimum wage, WIC and other such programs. Then I would require all business operating in the US to restrict the highest paid person in the corporation to make no more than thirty times the lowest paid person. And since the Supreme court has decided a corporation is a person, I guess that would also apply to he corporation. 8) This would further reduce consumption. Think about it as people are replaced by automation, they would be protected by a nice financial safety net that allows them the ability and time to learn other skills to help them survive. Sure some will just stay on the teat and do nothing. But if they do, there consumption is limited.

Do I think we will do any of these? Of course not! :lol: To much hatred going around.

I saw someone on a very recent TED talk who claimed the Republicans think their beliefs come from love and doing the right thing, and they believed the Democrats beliefs came from hate, so whatever they thought was evil. He said Democrats think their beliefs came from love, and the Republicans beliefs came from hate, so anything a Republican said was automatically evil. I see a lot of that, even on this board.
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Re: Why Cap and Trade Doesn’t Work

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 20 Mar 2016, 08:23:38

When Labor in Australia introduced a Carbon tax, it cost them government, along with their border policy failure. The Carbon tax mistake here was mainly in their projections which showed that consumers who did not for whatever reason solarise & contribute to the grid were going to face exponential rises in electricity costs. Coal was still going to provide the baseload & 'somebody' was going to be paying far more for this, effectively a forced subsidy for solar & wind, with no end to coal in sight, no means to displace the baseload requirement. It wasn't hard to shoot the policy full of holes. Put this inexplicable mess with regular images of extreme trauma at sea, out of control migration, all added up to a government without a mandate. Cap & trade doesn't cause mass drownings, but faces the same problem as carbon tax, a forced subsidy which can only go part of the way to fixing the emissions issue.
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Re: Why Cap and Trade Doesn’t Work

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 20 Mar 2016, 08:32:27

careinke wrote:First off the title is stupid. He is not talking about Cap and Trade at all (which I would like to know about). He is talking a carbon tax. .....
.......

Do I think we will do any of these? Of course not! :lol: To much hatred going around.
......

You are right there of course.
The first thing in the way is the twenty trillion Federal debt. Any new taxes will have to go to that before you could eliminate any old ones. We need to balance the budget to stop the debt from growing further and hopefully pay it down over fifteen years or so or( more likely )at least make the payments on it.
Raise your well head/mine mouth tax and raise the gas/diesel tax a dime every six months until imports to the USA drop to zero, just don't waste the money.
Cut all Federal salaries by ten percent in any year when the budget is out of balance,. (Declared war excepted.) Including Congress ,the executive , branch and all their consultants. :)
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Re: Why Cap and Trade Doesn’t Work

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 20 Mar 2016, 13:20:00

KaiserJeep wrote:
Why Cap and Trade Doesn’t Work

....higher prices for carbon intensive goods and services will almost certainly ...severely punish poor and middle class households with higher costs for life’s necessities — like driving to work and heating the house, leaving less money for truly discretionary spending.



http://spectator.org/articles/65824/why-cap-and-trade-doesn't-work


Yes, of course.

300 million poor and middle class Americans produce a lot of CO2. The simplest way to reduce those CO2 emissions is to tax carbon and raise the cost of driving a car and heating a house and other so-called necessities.

Cheers!
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Re: Why Cap and Trade Doesn’t Work

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 20 Mar 2016, 14:06:19

For anybody who is interested, California has several sorts of cap & trade taxes. The $0.10 per gallon applied to gasoline refineries is one such, and part of the reason we pay very high prices for gasoline in this state.

The biggest Cap & Trade tax is applied to electrical power plants. The net result is Summer brownouts and (in the recent past) rolling blackouts due to electricity shortages. We have the generating capacity needed in-state, but the C & T rules force us to buy renewable energy from out-of-state and idle the in-state fossil fuel plants.

In a country where the average cost is $0.117 per Kwh, Californians pay $0.152. The largest state by population has the 9th largest cost for electrical power, ranked by 50 states and the DC. That high cost is paid by anybody, rich or poor, who owns or rents and who gets an electrical bill, or they turn off the juice.

http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/10/27/141766341/the-price-of-electricity-in-your-state

The only good news, is it's only half of what Hawaii pays, which is $0.332 per Kwh.

The revenues thus extorted are used to fund the CSI (California Solar Initiative) and to fund CARB (California Air Resources Board). Neither of which does much to clean up the air we breathe, most of today's pollution is blown across the Pacific from China, where they are burning the coal the US exports in power plants and steel mills, manufacturing all sorts of goods like the solar panels I put on my roof, to spare the air.

Of course, Hawaii gets more Chinese air pollution then we do - but then, they pay twice as much money for electricity, so I guess they are entitled to it.

Most of the PO.com members need to grow up and gain the appreciation that government-imposed taxes most often increase the cost of whatever they are intended to provide relief for, and increase whatever they are intended to reduce. Carbon Cap & Trade, carbon taxes, and air pollution standards collectively did massive environmental damage - unless you happen to believe that Chinese air pollution doesn't matter to the planet.

If you want to dispute the effects of taxation, start with the disastrous damage that Obamacare did to health insurance rates, and explain how taxes in YOUR state reduced your electric costs. Note in the above link that the other C & T states - mostly in New England - pay even more than Californians for electrical power.
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Re: Why Cap and Trade Doesn’t Work

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 20 Mar 2016, 14:21:44

vtsnowedin wrote: Raise your well head/mine mouth tax and raise the gas/diesel tax a dime every six months until imports to the USA drop to zero, just don't waste the money.
Cut all Federal salaries by ten percent in any year when the budget is out of balance,. (Declared war excepted.) Including Congress ,the executive , branch and all their consultants. :)

Interesting comments.

I understand why raising the tax on gas/diesel is desirable, and I've been for that for a good 35 years now. Doing it gradually seems brilliant. The economy can adapt, and there is an ever greater incentive for people to conserve.

Now, with oil fracking, there is a real chance net oil imports could drop to zero over the next decade or less, just due to technology enabling greater US production. (The US has at least a ten year head start vs. the rest of the world re shale oil fracking, and when the price rises enough, the frackers will jump back in. The investment payoff period on fracked oil wells tends to be quite short). So, IMO, we need to raise the tax regardless of whether we are at net imports or not. Once we reach European levels, assuming we're seeing serious conservation, it would be time to reassess the policy.

Why just pick on the federal workers? Except for the folks at the top, they're just professionals, doing their job. Why not something like Graham-Rudman and cut EVERYTHING? That way the pet programs of EVERYONE get cut. From social programs to defense systems the Pentagon doesn't even want. That should be a lot more fair, and focus attention quicker. With your plan, you just impoverish federal workers within a decade (since congress won't ever balance the budget. The beauty of Graham-Rudman is that by definition it DOES balance the budget, by force.) And at some point, the system starts to fall apart. Bad as the system is, it's better than a completely failing system.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Why Cap and Trade Doesn’t Work

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Sun 20 Mar 2016, 19:12:31

SeaGypsy wrote:When Labor in Australia introduced a Carbon tax, it cost them government, along with their border policy failure. The Carbon tax mistake here was mainly in their projections which showed that consumers who did not for whatever reason solarise & contribute to the grid were going to face exponential rises in electricity costs. Coal was still going to provide the baseload & 'somebody' was going to be paying far more for this, effectively a forced subsidy for solar & wind, with no end to coal in sight, no means to displace the baseload requirement. It wasn't hard to shoot the policy full of holes. Put this inexplicable mess with regular images of extreme trauma at sea, out of control migration, all added up to a government without a mandate. Cap & trade doesn't cause mass drownings, but faces the same problem as carbon tax, a forced subsidy which can only go part of the way to fixing the emissions issue.

The Carbon Tax or migration didnt cause a change of government
Rudds new policy was virtually identical to Abootts policy on Migration (minus the secrecy)it just hadnt worked as there was only months before the election was called.
It was the fact that the PM was depicted as "lying" about not introducing a Carbon Tax.
This created a massive scare campaign,fueled by the Murdoch media and every right wing shock jock.
The actual tax caused minimal pain even though it was massively high in world comparison the compensation for the pain was modeled and fair.
As to whether a small country can change carbon emissions for the world is debatable,especially when we are the major coal exporters to China and that wasnt carbon taxed.

Labours new policy going into this next election will be a Cap and Trade.
They will lose the election but it wont be for that its more to do with cycles and perceived popularity of current leaders,than policy.
The current Conservative leader is a former supporter of cap and trade but has back tracked because of internal deals with the right wingers in his party to hold on to his leadership.
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Re: Why Cap and Trade Doesn’t Work

Unread postby ralfy » Sun 20 Mar 2016, 21:07:50

In the end, we will probably not have cap and trade. Just cap.
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Re: Why Cap and Trade Doesn’t Work

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Sun 20 Mar 2016, 21:56:38

Externalities need to be factored in.
Big polluters dont deserve a free ride at the expense of the environment or future generations.
Cap and trade or carbon tax seems fair.
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Re: Why Cap and Trade Doesn’t Work

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 21 Mar 2016, 05:20:09

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote: Raise your well head/mine mouth tax and raise the gas/diesel tax a dime every six months until imports to the USA drop to zero, just don't waste the money.
Cut all Federal salaries by ten percent in any year when the budget is out of balance,. (Declared war excepted.) Including Congress ,the executive , branch and all their consultants. :)

Interesting comments.

I understand why raising the tax on gas/diesel is desirable, and I've been for that for a good 35 years now. Doing it gradually seems brilliant. The economy can adapt, and there is an ever greater incentive for people to conserve.

Now, with oil fracking, there is a real chance net oil imports could drop to zero over the next decade or less, just due to technology enabling greater US production. (The US has at least a ten year head start vs. the rest of the world re shale oil fracking, and when the price rises enough, the frackers will jump back in. The investment payoff period on fracked oil wells tends to be quite short). So, IMO, we need to raise the tax regardless of whether we are at net imports or not. Once we reach European levels, assuming we're seeing serious conservation, it would be time to reassess the policy.

Why just pick on the federal workers? Except for the folks at the top, they're just professionals, doing their job. Why not something like Graham-Rudman and cut EVERYTHING? That way the pet programs of EVERYONE get cut. From social programs to defense systems the Pentagon doesn't even want. That should be a lot more fair, and focus attention quicker. With your plan, you just impoverish federal workers within a decade (since congress won't ever balance the budget. The beauty of Graham-Rudman is that by definition it DOES balance the budget, by force.) And at some point, the system starts to fall apart. Bad as the system is, it's better than a completely failing system.

Graham-Rudman has been tried. Good idea but it did not last. Cut the decision makers salaries just one time and they will find a way to never let it happen again. To balance those budgets and keep getting re-elected they will find ways to cut out unnecessary expenditures while hurting as few voters as possible. It would take a constitutional convention and amendment to the constitution to achieve this but if we don't get a handle on federal spending we are toast. It may already be too late.
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