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Guardian: Europe has to step up, Obama won't handle it

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Guardian: Europe has to step up, Obama won't handle it

Unread postby Sixstrings » Fri 27 Nov 2015, 21:55:21

In parliament, David Cameron talked about arming 70,000 moderate rebels:

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‘Building up a unified European resolve is important because no one is under any illusion that the Obama administration wants to embroil itself deeper in the Middle East.’

Cameron is right about Syria – but the outcome now depends on Russia

Building up a unified European resolve is especially important because no one is under any illusion that the Obama administration wants to embroil itself deeper in the Middle East: America, miles across the Atlantic, simply doesn’t feel its own security is on the line. But Europe’s is. The Middle East is spewing out its violence on to our continent. Germany has announced it will contribute surveillance and refuelling planes over Syria. Eyes are now on Britain.

But what is the strategy? It is clear to all that Isis cannot be defeated with airstrikes alone. Ground forces are needed to rout Isis in Raqqa – its self-styled “capital of the caliphate”, in eastern Syria, and from where the Paris attacks were planned. Ground forces will also be needed for future postwar stabilisation efforts. These ground forces cannot, and should not, be western. That would invite a repetition of the costly mistakes made in Iraq and Afghanistan, where military occupation created a spiral of violence and radicalisation.

So who can be deployed against Isis? David Cameron’s assertion in the House of Commons that 70,000 “moderate” Syrian rebels could be counted on caused raised eyebrows.

Here’s the logic: what Cameron calls “moderate” Syrian opposition forces are anti-Assad rebels who currently spend most of their energy and resources resisting the onslaught of Syrian government troops who, since September, have benefitted from Russian close air support. If those rebels can be “freed” from having to fight on that front (located in the west of Syria), they would become available to move against Isis (mostly in the east). An added and crucial advantage is that it would become much easier to rally Sunni constituencies against Isis. The Kurds cannot be the ground force for the retaking of Raqqa or of any other important Arab-populated area. Sunni groups are the best option, but that means they need to feel empowered by new dynamics.

And here’s the problem. For the last two months Russia has been striking at the very groups Cameron and others want to see grow into an anti-Isis ground force.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/27/david-cameron-syria-russia-hollande-putin
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Re: Guardian: Europe has to step up, Obama won't handle it

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 27 Nov 2015, 22:12:13

Obama has already spent half a billon dollars trying to create a "Free Syrian Army'. It was an utter failure.

What makes Cameron and Europe think they can do it any better? :lol:
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Re: Guardian: Europe has to step up, Obama won't handle it

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 27 Nov 2015, 22:23:59

"What makes Cameron and Europe think they can do it any better?" IMHO that doesn't matter at all. The EU members have armies and sophisticated aircraft. Maybe it's time for the Europeans to be the policemen for their part of the world. After all for years many EU leaders criticized the US acting like the "world's policeman". Now it's their turn.
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Re: Guardian: Europe has to step up, Obama won't handle it

Unread postby Lore » Fri 27 Nov 2015, 22:27:25

ROCKMAN wrote:"What makes Cameron and Europe think they can do it any better?" IMHO that doesn't matter at all. The EU members have armies and sophisticated aircraft. Maybe it's time for the Europeans to be the policemen for their part of the world. After all for years many EU leaders criticized the US acting like the "world's policeman". Now it's their turn.


I couldn't agree more. The enemy is on their doorstep. Time to put up, or shut up.
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Re: Guardian: Europe has to step up, Obama won't handle it

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 28 Nov 2015, 02:27:47

Cameron in parliament, 30 minute video, good overview of the overall situation / argument in favor of more military action and that it's legal to do so, etc.:

SyriaAirStrikesDebate: David Cameron statement + Jeremy Corbyn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX8irawWdMc


Cameron says there are 70,000 existing opposition in Free Syria Army etc. that the UK could work with, and that these groups aren't involved with extremist groups.

Cameron also talks about helping the kurds more.
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Re: Guardian: Europe has to step up, Obama won't handle it

Unread postby GregT » Sat 28 Nov 2015, 03:18:41

Sixstrings wrote:In parliament, David Cameron talked about arming 70,000 moderate rebels:


That's rich. Maybe it's time to start supporting Syria, instead of supporting moderate Islamist extremists.
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Re: Guardian: Europe has to step up, Obama won't handle it

Unread postby Apneaman » Sat 28 Nov 2015, 03:25:22

Well since the US is still occupying Germany 70 years after WWII, they are the ones who should shut the fuck up or pack their bags and go home. They ain't there for the snitzel.

Given American cops penchant for shooting unarmed civilians for blinking too fast and other such aggressive moves, it's no wonder foreigners don't want them to be their police. Even as your country is turning into the biggest shit hole on the planet, the self importance and exceptionalism delusion continues.

Cut that social spending and continue to ignore the crumbling infrastructure because military misadventures and funding the MIC are Job#1.


America’s Empire of African Bases Spreads
The U.S. military has built an extensive archipelago of African outposts, transforming the continent into a laboratory for a new kind of war.



http://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/ ... es-spreads


America's Empire of Bases on the Sly


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-engel ... 82798.html
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Re: Guardian: Europe has to step up, Obama won't handle it

Unread postby PrestonSturges » Sat 28 Nov 2015, 03:50:13

Apneaman wrote:Well since the US is still occupying Germany 70 years after WWII, they are the ones who should shut the fuck up or pack their bags and go home. They ain't there for the snitzel.


It's the leiderhosen and strudel. German-Americans are the largest single minority (by nationality) in the United States.

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Re: Guardian: Europe has to step up, Obama won't handle it

Unread postby davep » Sat 28 Nov 2015, 06:41:54

Cameron gave no supporting evidence for these 70k moderate rebels. It's just to rationalise no boots on the ground and the continuing opposition to any collaboration with Syrian ground forces. It's pie in the sky.
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Re: Guardian: Europe has to step up, Obama won't handle it

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 28 Nov 2015, 07:01:50

Well since the US is still occupying Germany 70 years after WWII, they are the ones who should shut the fuck up or pack their bags and go home. They ain't there for the snitzel.

Not going to happen AP, US will be displaying and utilizing its military might long after we have become a third world like country which as you aptly describe we pretty much already are with the crumbling infrastructure, spotty healthcare, large disenfranchised masses and porous education. Don't you know we are the modern day Roman empire just dissolving into nothing.
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Re: Guardian: Europe has to step up, Obama won't handle it

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 28 Nov 2015, 07:07:57

Yes Europe has a big problem with the refugees and migrants and utter destabilization of ME. It also has the corresponding problem that its populations have a very strong aversion to any military conflicts as they have too many bad memories of world wars. So the politicians of Europe are in quite a bind, damned if they do, damned if they don't. :cry:
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Re: Guardian: Europe has to step up, Obama won't handle it

Unread postby penury » Sat 28 Nov 2015, 18:15:55

Cameron is correct in one respect. It is time for E.U. to step up. The first action needs to be get rid of NATO. The second action should be to remove all American bases from their territory. (Japan and Korea need to do the same.) However, until the Empire collapses none of this will be done. Money buys many friends, or at least accomplices.
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Re: Guardian: Europe has to step up, Obama won't handle it

Unread postby Cog » Sat 28 Nov 2015, 18:37:14

penury wrote:Cameron is correct in one respect. It is time for E.U. to step up. The first action needs to be get rid of NATO. The second action should be to remove all American bases from their territory. (Japan and Korea need to do the same.) However, until the Empire collapses none of this will be done. Money buys many friends, or at least accomplices.


So do you work for the Chinese or the Russians? Or both? :lol:
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Re: Guardian: Europe has to step up, Obama won't handle it

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 28 Nov 2015, 20:43:29

Apneaman wrote:America’s Empire of African Bases Spreads
The U.S. military has built an extensive archipelago of African outposts, transforming the continent into a laboratory for a new kind of war.



http://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/ ... es-spreads


America's Empire of Bases on the Sly


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-engel ... 82798.html


I read your links, and what the article says is that actually the idea for the mini-bases was in response to Benghazi.

I think it's a good idea. It makes strategic / tactical sense. They've got all these small bases now, 200 max personnel each, and they've got a runway on them and they've got those osprey plane / helicopter combo things.

So the idea is that wherever there's trouble, *forces can be quickly concentrated*. It's the "lilypad" strategy with 100 small bases versus 20,000 troops concentrated on one big base that can't respond to the other side of the continent.

That would help if there's ever another US embassy in danger or another "benghazi," OR TERRORSIM.

At any point in Africa, if there's trouble, then there's that radial network of US bases and they can just fly in to where the trouble's at.

You're acting like this is a big outrage, but it looks to me like whoever's in charge of Africom is doing a good job.

(anology -- think about which would be smarter for a state, just one big police department with 20,000 police but then they can't ever respond fast enough on the other end of the state.. or do you have local PD's instead so response time is faster. It's logical, no?

The old way of doing things was for the cold war era and massive armies, so you had big bases. But now the priority is *rapid response* -- to terrorism and embassies under threat from riots and such, and then also it's actually Putin that started the model of rapid action forces and smaller more mobile forces.)
Last edited by Sixstrings on Sat 28 Nov 2015, 20:59:05, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Guardian: Europe has to step up, Obama won't handle it

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 28 Nov 2015, 20:50:33

Apneaman wrote: ... the US is still occupying Germany 70 years after WWII


Really? I think your TV is giving you a false impression. Actually the US is no longer occupying Germany---the occupation ended in 1955---60 years ago. :lol:

allies-end-occupation-of-west-germany-1955

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You haff let him ESCAPE! You DUMBKOPF! Now Hogan vill occupy us for 70 YEARS in der reruns!!!!!
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Re: Guardian: Europe has to step up, Obama won't handle it

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 28 Nov 2015, 21:11:41

penury wrote:Cameron is correct in one respect. It is time for E.U. to step up. The first action needs to be get rid of NATO. The second action should be to remove all American bases from their territory. (Japan and Korea need to do the same.) However, until the Empire collapses none of this will be done. Money buys many friends, or at least accomplices.


If the UK left NATO and its alliances, it would actually need a draft and massive taxes and would have to divert a lot of money from social spending -- all to build up a truly independent military that can get things done all by itself without any help.

As for Korea -- that's a rock solid US ally, and they're worried about north koreans and they have good reason to be worried. Unless you're korean, who are you to say "they should leave the US bloc?"

As for Japan -- again, that's one of the most core US allies in the world. They're worried about China. They're a democracy and they elected Shinzo Abe. And he's got Japan, with agreement from the US, on a track now to be the leading democratic power in the Pacific. Japan will be democracy's bulwark in the Pacific, with the USA as backup.

Japan designed a really good submarine by the way, and they're going to sell those to Australia.

Unless you are Japanese, who are you to say what they should or shouldn't do or however much they have to just bow down to Beijing?

Japan bids for $35 billion Australia submarine contract

Though a newcomer to the international arms bazaar, Japan seems well-positioned to win one of the most coveted defense tenders in years -- a $35 billion contract to supply new submarines to Australia.

Japan’s major weapons makers, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and Kawasaki Heavy Industries, are up against two experienced European arms makers, DCNS of France and Germany’s Thysen Krupp. Bidding closes Nov. 30.

The new submarines are meant to replace Australia’s Collins-class subs, the first built in Australia. The number of new subs is not final, but would range from eight to 12. They would go into service in 2025.

The Japanese think they have a winner in their “Soryu” class submarines, the biggest -- and many say the best -- conventionally powered submarine in the world. The submarine reportedly has secrets that Japan hasn’t even shared with the U.S., its chief ally.
http://www.aa.com.tr/en/asia-pacific/japan-bids-for-35-billion-australia-submarine-contract/482374
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Re: Guardian: Europe has to step up, Obama won't handle it

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 28 Nov 2015, 21:30:33

davep wrote:Cameron gave no supporting evidence for these 70k moderate rebels. It's just to rationalise no boots on the ground and the continuing opposition to any collaboration with Syrian ground forces. It's pie in the sky.


Bottom line about it is that it actually does need "western" boots on the ground.

The proxy stuff can't work out. There just needs to be a US led coalition. UK and Europe nor France can or are willing to do that. The most Germany is doing is they just sent "refueling planes." Well, that ain't ever gonna win a war.

This whole thing will probably have to wait until 2017 and the next US president.

The Brits should be helping more though -- it's not fair the USA has to do it all. If I'm not mistaken, the UK hasn't been doing anything to help, this whole time. Not one plane. Whereas the coalition has 155 US planes and then Canada had 6 and Australia had 6. See a pattern? USA has to do it all, all the time.

And Justin Trudeau has said he's gonna withdraw Canada's 6 planes and not help at all.

I don't blame these US allies though -- there's been no good leader in the white house.
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Re: Guardian: Europe has to step up, Obama won't handle it

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 28 Nov 2015, 21:35:58

The problem with far left green party type views, like with Corbyn in the UK, is that they are so anti-war that they aren't even for simple defense.

And the problem with THAT philosophy is that the rest of the world is not all green party peace and rainbows people. If they were then yeah, nobody would need an army or air force.

What the green party type crowd likes to do is just spin a narrative that everything is "the Establishment's" fault and "America's fault" or "Tony Blair's fault." Their mistake is that they think aggression in the world is all "anti-western" and if you just give in to everything adversaries want, then they'd leave you alone.

But that's not true.

There will always be bullies in the world, and you can never placate them enough, they'll just take more advantage the more "green party" you are.
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Re: Guardian: Europe has to step up, Obama won't handle it

Unread postby Sixstrings » Sat 28 Nov 2015, 21:54:58

U.K. PM David Cameron says time to join airstrikes against ISIS in Syria
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/cameron-uk-isis-syria-airstrikes-1.3337743


Well yeah, it's way past time.

Obama actually tells the Europeans it's they that have not been doing anything thus far, the US has been doing it all.

All the allies should be helping, and with something more substantial than "6 planes." France finally now has 38 planes -- that was post Paris attacks. And I'm not knocking France, but that's the level of support there should have been all along, it shouldn't be just all American planes and all these allies are not giving more than token support. It's actually not fair, to the US taxpayer. USA doesn't get any money back from this stuff, it just costs money.

Does anyone know if I'm wrong about the UK by the way, have they been in the Iraq part of the air coalition? Is it just that they haven't been helping on the Syria side, or have they been doing zero airstrikes this whole time?
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Re: Guardian: Europe has to step up, Obama won't handle it

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sun 29 Nov 2015, 01:47:40

Democrat from Hawaii defies Obama-----tries to get Congress to block his failing Syria strategy

tulsi-gabbard-rising-democratic-star-from-hawaii-makes-mark-on-party-by-defying-obama

Looks like the Europeans aren't the only ones who are figuring out that Obama isn't up to the job. Even the Ds in his own party are starting to see that obamas Syria strategy isn't working.
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