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USA, Russia in energy competition for Europe

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USA, Russia in energy competition for Europe

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 04 Feb 2015, 16:58:51

Article says US and Russian companies are competing on pipelines and nuclear plant bids, across Europe. Says that within five years, American companies will have 20% of Russia nat gas to Europe market share:

U.S., Russia engage in Cold War-like ‘chess match’ over energy

It’s a Cold War reprise, but not for military supremacy, and the points on the map aren’t troop deployments, tank battalions and missile silos. Rather, pipelines, ports and power plants are the weapons of what could prove a generation-defining conflict between the U.S. and Russia over how Europe heats and electrifies its homes.

Success, U.S. officials say, would mean finally “liberating” former Soviet states and satellites from decades of economic bullying by Moscow.

To that end, Washington is helping set up new natural gas pipelines and terminals in a region that depends on Russia for more than 70 percent of its energy needs. It is pushing American companies’ bids for nuclear plants and fracking exploration in Europe.

Yet as the U.S. makes headway, the Kremlin is fighting back, warning neighboring governments about the consequences of looking westward for fuel. Russia is trying to outmaneuver the U.S. on nuclear bids, buy up pipeline infrastructure across Europe and control not only how its vast energy reserves move westward, but what European governments can do with those supplies afterward.

“It’s a chess match,” said Amos Hochstein, the State Department’s special envoy for international energy affairs, as he pored over a map of Europe dotted with existing and proposed pipeline routes.

Although the U.S. has pressed its European partners for decades to find new oil, gas, coal and nuclear sources, the crisis in Ukraine has upped the ante. Russia’s takeover of Crimea last year and continued support for rebels in a brutal civil war in Ukraine has changed Europe’s mindset about relying so heavily on Russian energy.

Last month, Secretary of State John Kerry visited Bulgaria to push for a new gas spur and to promote an American company’s bid to build a new nuclear plant. Bulgaria relies on Russia for 85 percent of its gas and all of its nuclear power. The prices, among the highest for NATO countries, are a concern within the alliance, which prides itself on winning the Cold War.

“The battle was won,” Kerry told staffers at the U.S. Embassy in Sofia. “And here we are today in 2015, and Russia is still trying to impose on people its will.”

In November, Vice President Joe Biden visited Romania, another vulnerable country, and Turkey, Europe’s bridge to resource-rich Central Asia, to press the case.

Victoria Nuland, America’s top diplomat for Europe, and energy envoy Hochstein have spent much of the past few months working with Europe on a coordinated energy strategy. Their message: Failure now will only invite more Russian pressure.

While episodes of Russia shutting off the energy spigots to its neighbors have raised alarms, persistent infighting among European governments and energy companies has hampered diversification efforts across the continent.

But, increasingly, there now is action in addition to diversity talk.

With U.S. support, Lithuania and soon Poland will be importing liquefied natural gas from Norway, Qatar and potentially the United States. New pipelines will enable Central and Eastern European countries to send fuel from west to east and north to south.

And in a couple of years, a southern corridor should be taking fuel from the Caspian Sea through Azerbaijan, Georgia and Turkey, and into Europe, bypassing Russia.

Those advances combined with other moving parts — a liquefied gas plant off the Croatian coast, a Bulgaria-Romania network connection, links into Serbia and Hungary, and greater energy integration as far afield as Spain and France — will mean Europeans can increasingly trade energy among themselves, pooling their fuel sources and weakening Russia’s grip.

Hochstein said the U.S. would like to see a 20 percent slice cut out of Russia’s current share of the Eastern European gas market by 2020, considering that a major step forward.

While Western Europe provides the funding, the U.S. is giving technology and political support.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/us-russia-engage-cold-war-like-chess-match-energy/


Just posting this because it's about energy, and a lot of you on the forum are experts on the energy sector. I've read pieces of this before, about how Poland is building a large LNG port and they already get shipments in from Qatar. So the plan is for more of that in the future, and LNG shipped from the US, and then some pipeline too coming up from the middle east.

Angela Merkel is pushing energy diversity more, lately, and was talking about that the other day in Hungary.

John Kerry, last month in Bulgaria:

“The battle was won,” Kerry told staffers at the U.S. Embassy in Sofia. “And here we are today in 2015, and Russia is still trying to impose on people its will.”


Thoughts?
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Re: USA, Russia in energy competition for Europe

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 04 Feb 2015, 17:05:53

It makes a lot of sense for the EU to try to diversify who they get their energy from.

Being highly dependent on Russia (and Putin) for natural gas makes the EU more susceptible to Russian bullying.

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Re: USA, Russia in energy competition for Europe

Unread postby Quinny » Wed 04 Feb 2015, 17:27:49

Suppose it provides justification for the US support for Nazi overthrow of democratically elected leader in Ukraine.
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Re: USA, Russia in energy competition for Europe

Unread postby Strummer » Wed 04 Feb 2015, 17:28:37

It's not really possible for anyone, be it Quatar or the US, to compete with Russian gas pricing. Europe is commiting economic suicide with this "diversifying" nonsense.

And don't get me started on the "bullying" part. Russia has been a 100% reliable gas supplier for the last 50 years. There never was any "bullying". The pipelines to western Europe started in the 60s, at the height of the cold war, and the US was for decades doing everything to block them, just as they do today. The purpose of the US bullying has always been to prevent closer cooperation of Russia and Germany, as that partnership would threaten US dominance. Unfortunately, the current German leadership is a US puppet, so for the first time in 50 years, the US is succeeding in driving a wedge between Russia and Germany, and this will have fatal consequences for the EU economy.
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Re: USA, Russia in energy competition for Europe

Unread postby Withnail » Wed 04 Feb 2015, 17:32:18

How is the US going to export any gas when it consumes more than it produces?

Last month, Secretary of State John Kerry visited Bulgaria to push for a new gas spur


A spur from where to where?

With gas from where?

This doesnt make any sense.

With U.S. support, Lithuania and soon Poland will be importing liquefied natural gas from Norway, Qatar and potentially the United States.


I'm sure gas consumers there are going to love that.

I guess it's bye bye to gas dependent industries as well.

And since when does Norway have gas spare to put in tankers? Britain and Ireland need that gas.
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Re: USA, Russia in energy competition for Europe

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 04 Feb 2015, 17:41:22

In addition to an obvious desire by the EU to diversify energy sources to reduce Russian control of their energy supplies, NG in the US costs a fraction of what Russia is charging the EU. Of course the EU is going to look at importing cheaper NG from the US.

AND, the most recent US Government study completed in Nov. 2014 shows the US can meet EU demand for US LNG exports

EIA: Increased US NG production can meet demand for US LNG exports

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Re: USA, Russia in energy competition for Europe

Unread postby Withnail » Wed 04 Feb 2015, 17:54:20

Plantagenet wrote:In addition to an obvious desire by the EU to diversify energy sources to reduce Russian control of their energy supplies, NG in the US costs a fraction of what Russia is charging the EU. Of course the EU is going to look at importing cheaper NG from the US.

AND, the most recent US Government study completed in Nov. 2014 shows the US can meet EU demand for US LNG exports

EIA: Increased US NG production can meet demand for US LNG exports

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Nonsense. liquified gas is double the price of piped gas, and the US has no surplus to export. It still imports gas.

The figures you quote are just fantasy.
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Re: USA, Russia in energy competition for Europe

Unread postby Strummer » Wed 04 Feb 2015, 18:28:47

Plantagenet wrote:NG in the US costs a fraction of what Russia is charging the EU. Of course the EU is going to look at importing cheaper NG from the US.


Great, now can you show a concrete real-world comparison of prices of US LNG gas export to Europe versus Russian pipeline gas export to Europe?
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Re: USA, Russia in energy competition for Europe

Unread postby radon1 » Wed 04 Feb 2015, 21:55:03

http://itar-tass.com/en/economy/775460

Norway boosts funding for cooperation projects with Russia

The Barents Secretariat, a public organization responsible for regional cooperation, had received an extra $18 million of funding, $2.4 million more than in the previous 3 years, its head says

KIRKENES /Norway/, February 4. /TASS/. Norway’s government has increased funding for projects with Russia in the next three years designed to promote bilateral cooperation, said Pia Svensgaard, head of state-run Norwegian Barents Secretariat.

Svensgaard said in an interview with TASS that the Barents Secretariat, a public organization responsible for regional cooperation, had received an extra $18 million of funding, $2.4 million more than in the previous three years.

"Given the current difficult political situation, our task of developing bilateral cooperation between the northern regions of Norway and Russia is more important than ever before," Svensgaard said. "Our cooperation at the regional level continues as usual. We don't see any obstacles to further activities."
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Re: USA, Russia in energy competition for Europe

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Thu 05 Feb 2015, 02:33:35

Sixstrings wrote:
Washington is helping set up new natural gas pipelines and terminals

Thoughts?
Does this "help" include any US$ or is it just a sales pitch on behalf of US companies?
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Re: USA, Russia in energy competition for Europe

Unread postby AgentR11 » Thu 05 Feb 2015, 02:40:59

Keith_McClary wrote:
Sixstrings wrote:
Washington is helping set up new natural gas pipelines and terminals

Thoughts?
Does this "help" include any US$ or is it just a sales pitch on behalf of US companies?


One would hope the money would go from Germany -> US.

To the question of US import / export balance. Just because the US imports NG, does not imply that it can't or won't export NG. The expensive thing is the terminals and the shipping; not the gas itself. US imports gas by pipeline, so import cheap; and export expensive LNG to save those poor Europeans from their bad ole bear, and their nice fat wallets.

Secret to capitalism. Buy for 1, sell for 2.
Its as simple as that.
We'll buy NG for 1 from Canada, Mexico, et al, and sell to the Euros for 10.. or 20.. or who knows! :-D
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Re: USA, Russia in energy competition for Europe

Unread postby Ulenspiegel » Thu 05 Feb 2015, 04:47:20

"plan wrote: "In addition to an obvious desire by the EU to diversify energy sources to reduce Russian control of their energy supplies, NG in the US costs a fraction of what Russia is charging the EU. Of course the EU is going to look at importing cheaper NG from the US.

AND, the most recent US Government study completed in Nov. 2014 shows the US can meet EU demand for US LNG exports"

First you should provide hard data on Russian exports of NG to the EU, then a realistic number for US exports of LNG in the next years. Is it really more than a fart in the winterstorm?

Secondly, the price of LNG from whatever source is much higher than NG delivered by pipelines. Hint: there is an economic issue. :-)

Thirdly, the most obvious approach for most European states would be to reduce their NG consumtion (better insolation of buildings) and construction of NG storage facilities, bullying required that Russia cuts herself deep in her own flesh, storage facilities increase the pain.
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Re: USA, Russia in energy competition for Europe

Unread postby Withnail » Thu 05 Feb 2015, 06:16:48

AgentR11 wrote:
Keith_McClary wrote:
Sixstrings wrote:
Washington is helping set up new natural gas pipelines and terminals

Thoughts?
Does this "help" include any US$ or is it just a sales pitch on behalf of US companies?


One would hope the money would go from Germany -> US.



Germany has its own pipeline direct to Russia. It's the last place that would need LNG.
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Re: USA, Russia in energy competition for Europe

Unread postby AgentR11 » Thu 05 Feb 2015, 07:37:29

Withnail wrote:Germany has its own pipeline direct to Russia. It's the last place that would need LNG.


True enough. I was being kinda lose there, given that Germany seems to be giving the marching orders to the EU these days...
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Re: USA, Russia in energy competition for Europe

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Thu 05 Feb 2015, 09:53:15

“It's not really possible for anyone, be it Quatar or the US, to compete with Russian gas pricing.” So true. Details:

“NG in the US costs a fraction of what Russia is charging the EU.” So what: there is no way for any EU country to buy NG produced in the US so that price difference is not relevant at all. “Of course the EU is going to look at importing cheaper NG from the US.” Again ridiculous. The EU can’t import US NG. There are no NG pipelines connecting the US and the EU nor are there any planned.

The EU might one day import some LNG made from US NG but that price will be much higher than the current NG price in the US. The basic formula for pricing US LNG exports is $/mcf @ Henry Hub + liquefaction cost + transportation costs + profit margin.

“…liquefied gas is double the price of piped gas,” Sorry buddy…not even close. The latest price the Chinese were paying is 3X current US well head price. And for the rest of the Asian market including Japan: about 5X. So while the US might build more LNG facilities any EU buyer will have to compete with the Asian market. Good luck with that. LOL. Some more facts: US pipeline NG exports: 2013 - $4.08/mcf…2008 - $8.86/mcf. US LNG avg export price: 2013 - $13.36/mcf…2008 - $7.69/mcf.

Take note: between 2008 and 2013 US pipeline NG export prices fell about 50% and LNG export pricing doubled. And the word you’re searching for: competition.

The EU could have been importing 100% of their NG years ago. But that NG would have cost much more then what Russian was charging. So they had a choice and picked price over security. They still have the same choice today. And while some LNG import capabilities are being develop the EU is still overwhelmingly choosing price over security.
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Re: USA, Russia in energy competition for Europe

Unread postby radon1 » Thu 05 Feb 2015, 11:47:44

ROCKMAN wrote: price over security.


Security?
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Re: USA, Russia in energy competition for Europe

Unread postby Quinny » Thu 05 Feb 2015, 13:51:56

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Re: USA, Russia in energy competition for Europe

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Thu 05 Feb 2015, 14:46:16

Q - radon does bring up a good point. Is LNG from the ME always going to be as secure as it is today? And even from the US: US LNG exports are currently based upon the price at Henry Hub. What happens if decreased producition or increased consumption [list=][/list]drives the price so high that US consumers can outbid EU LNG buyers? Simple answer: no US LNG for the EU. IOW "security" implies a continuation of affordable NG. Excluding political motivation Russia may be the most secure long term source of NG for the EU: the Russians have a lot more NG then they consume (unlike the US) and their economy is very dependent upon fossil fuel exports (unlike the US).
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Re: USA, Russia in energy competition for Europe

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 05 Feb 2015, 15:56:04

ROCKMAN wrote:
“NG in the US costs a fraction of what Russia is charging the EU.” So what: there is no way for any EU country to buy NG produced in the US so that price difference is not relevant at all. “Of course the EU is going to look at importing cheaper NG from the US.” Again ridiculous. The EU can’t import US NG. There are no NG pipelines connecting the US and the EU nor are there any planned.


The NG in LNG stands for "natural gas".

If the US exports NG it will first convert it to LNG. And there are currently a surprisingly large number of US LNG export terminals being proposed, permitted and constructed on US coastlines right now.

Get it now? :)

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Re: USA, Russia in energy competition for Europe

Unread postby Strummer » Thu 05 Feb 2015, 16:29:53

Plantagenet wrote:If the US exports NG it will first convert it to LNG. And there are currently a surprisingly large number of US LNG export terminals being proposed, permitted and constructed on US coastlines right now.

Get it now? :)


Oh, sure we get it. But it would be great if you posted the price comparison between Russian pipeline gas to Europe and US tanker LNG to Europe, so that we know what the hell are you actually talking about.
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