Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Russian central bank raises interest rate to 17%

For discussions of events and conditions not necessarily related to Peak Oil.

Russian central bank raises interest rate to 17%

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 15 Dec 2014, 20:00:04

Russia Increases Key Rate Most Since 1998 to Stem Ruble Rout

Russia’s central bank raised its benchmark interest rate the most since the nation’s 1998 default, making the announcement in the middle of the night in Moscow as policy makers seek to douse investor panic and stem a ruble rout.

The central bank increased the key rate to 17 percent from 10.5 percent effective today, it said in a statement on its website. Policy makers gathered for an unscheduled meeting after a one-point increase on Dec. 11.

“This decision is aimed at limiting substantially increased ruble depreciation risks and inflation risks,” the bank said in the statement.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-12-15/russia-increases-key-interest-rate-to-17-to-stem-ruble-decline.html


Yikes, that's trouble with a capital T.. 8O

From 10% to 17%! Holy cow!

I feel bad for them (seriously), for goodness sake is it worth this much to them to buzz Swedish airliners????

The whole thing should stop, they're going to implode, there is NO GOOD REASON for it. :cry:
User avatar
Sixstrings
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 15160
Joined: Tue 08 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: Russian central bank raises interest rate to 17%

Unread postby Red Pill » Mon 15 Dec 2014, 22:00:50

I bought into a Russian ETF today (ERUS) figuring an 11% drop in 1-day was over the top (it's down almost 40% since Nov.1st).

If THAT rate hike doesn't give the rubble some support, then interesting times are truly ahead.
Red Pill
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu 12 Jun 2014, 20:14:11

Re: Russian central bank raises interest rate to 17%

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 15 Dec 2014, 23:40:18

Red Pill wrote:I bought into a Russian ETF today (ERUS) figuring an 11% drop in 1-day was over the top (it's down almost 40% since Nov.1st).

If THAT rate hike doesn't give the rubble some support, then interesting times are truly ahead.


Hm, sounds like a smart investment.

You and others investing at the right times will probably make a lot of money on Russian stuff, all this will be over with eventually and back to normal.

But anyhow..

It's interesting times either way. They've already got difficulty getting access to capital. So now a 17% base rate from the central bank? 8O

It's a downward spiral. Yes, it may shore up the ruble, maybe not, even if it does -- there are very negative economic effects of a 17% rate. It is never, ever, good news overall when the interest rate is 17%.
User avatar
Sixstrings
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 15160
Joined: Tue 08 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: Russian central bank raises interest rate to 17%

Unread postby dissident » Tue 16 Dec 2014, 00:32:04

This is the REPO rate for less than 1 week loans. The refinance rate is still 8.5%.

http://cbr.ru/press/pr.aspx?file=161220 ... _39_23.htm

Dates 12.12.14 16.12.14

REPO Auctions 1 to 6 days, 1 week 10,50 17,00

Refinance Rate 8,25 8,25

dissident
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 6458
Joined: Sat 08 Apr 2006, 03:00:00

Re: Russian central bank raises interest rate to 17%

Unread postby Red Pill » Tue 16 Dec 2014, 01:35:49

Well, it's just sad that it's going down this way.

Population wise, Russia isn't that big and maybe that is their problem....it is to easy to shut up those who disagree with the system.

Whereas China has such a huge population that they cannot ignore the damaging effects of wealth disparity without risking the uprooting of the Party, so they are at least forced to acknowledge that it's an issue.

We in the western world have our oligarchs, no doubt. But the degree to which those in Russia are allowed to dictate the direction of "their" country seems not of the modern world. Fitting, yet disturbing that Putin's government seeks closer ties with the likes of N. Korea.
Red Pill
Wood
Wood
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Thu 12 Jun 2014, 20:14:11

Re: Russian central bank raises interest rate to 17%

Unread postby Sixstrings » Tue 16 Dec 2014, 02:02:23

dissident wrote:This is the REPO rate for less than 1 week loans. The refinance rate is still 8.5%.


Ah, ok then. Thank you for the correction.

Can you or someone else explain this some more. What does this mean, a fund can buy russian bonds or something at 17% annualized, turning over once a week?

EDIT: zerohedge article on it,

Russia Shocks With Emergency Rate Hike, Boosts Interest Rate From 10.5% To 17%

Following the biggest rout to the Ruble in ages, Russia - unlike Mario Draghi - instead of talking the talk decided to walk the bazooka walk and shocked all those long the USDRUB by unleashing an emergency rate hike (at 1 am in the morning) from the recently raised interest rate of 10.50% to... hold on to your hats... 17.00%, a 650 bps increase!

Few markets are open but the 1month forward Ruble market just dropped (Ruble rallied) over 2.5 handles...

Image

(comment on ZH: "In Russia, BANKS pay YOU." LOL)
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-12-15/russia-shocks-emergency-rate-hike-boosts-interest-rate-105-17
User avatar
Sixstrings
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 15160
Joined: Tue 08 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: Russian central bank raises interest rate to 17%

Unread postby Sixstrings » Tue 16 Dec 2014, 02:12:19

Red Pill wrote:Well, it's just sad that it's going down this way.


I agree, it is sad.

They're sure stubborn. They won't ever nuke us, but rather they'll actually drive themselves into collapse all over eastern Ukraine. It's sad, and senseless.
User avatar
Sixstrings
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 15160
Joined: Tue 08 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: Russian central bank raises interest rate to 17%

Unread postby Sixstrings » Tue 16 Dec 2014, 02:55:22

​Sorry, Putin. Russia’s economy is doomed

A funny thing happened on the way to Vladimir Putin running strategic laps around the West. Russia's economy imploded.

The latest news is that Russia's central bank raised interest rates from 10.5 to 17 percent at an emergency 1 a.m. meeting in an attempt to stop the ruble, which is down 50 percent on the year against the dollar, from falling any further. It's a desperate move to save Russia's currency that comes at the cost of sacrificing Russia's economy. So even if it "works," things are about to get a lot worse.

It's a classic kind of emerging markets crisis. It's only a small simplification, you see, to say that Russia doesn't so much have an economy as it has an oil exporting business that subsidizes everything else. That's why the combination of more supply from the United States, and less demand from Europe, China, and Japan has hit them particularly hard. Cheaper oil means Russian companies have fewer dollars to turn into rubles, which is just another way of saying that there's less demand for rubles—so its price is falling. It hasn't helped, of course, that sanctions over Russia's incursion into Ukraine have already left Russia short on dollars.

Add it all up, and the ruble has fallen something like 22 percent against the dollar the past month, with 11 percent of that coming on Monday alone. As you can see below, the Russian ruble has fallen even further than the Ukrainian hryvnia or Brent oil has this year. The only asset, and I use that word lightly, that's done worse than the ruble's 50 percent fall is Bitcoin, which is a fake currency that techno-utopians insist is the future we don't know we want.

And this is only going to get worse. Russia, you see, is stuck in an economic catch-22. Its economy needs lower interest rates to push up growth, but its companies need higher interest rates to push up the ruble and make all the dollars they borrowed not worth so much. So, to use a technical term, they're screwed no matter what they do.

Image
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/12/15/russias-economy-is-doomed-its-that-simple/




Russia vows economic pain for Ukraine, Ukraine says they'll trade with others who won't "stab them in the back:"

As Ukraine truce holds, Russia vows economic pain

“The Ukrainian government has made its choice. And even if our neighbors have a poor understanding of the ultimate price they will have to pay, that is their right,” Medvedev said.

Those ominous words came as a renewed truce in east Ukraine called for by President Petro Poroshenko is holding — barring sporadic violations — since it began last week.

...

“In plain Russian, dealing with Ukraine ‘pragmatically’ means giving it no quarter. Russia’s economic approach to Ukraine will get tougher,” Dmitry Trenin, who heads the Carnegie Moscow Center, wrote in a Twitter post.

Medvedev wrote that Ukraine has been unhealthily reliant on Moscow for too long; adding that as of last spring, Russian orders from Ukrainian companies were valued at $15 billion, or 8.3 percent of Ukraine’s Gross Domestic Product.

“Nobody in Ukraine has explained to us, or themselves, how these orders will be replaced,” he wrote.

Ukraine remains heavily dependent on Russian natural gas and industries in eastern Ukraine are still tightly intertwined with those in western Russia. Ukraine has had to go cap in hand to Russia recently for electricity supplies, as its power plants lack enough coal.

Medvedev also said a closer eye will be paid to Ukrainian citizens traveling to Russia for work — an ominous suggestion that this economic lifeline could be drastically tightened.

Ukrainian officials have put a brave face on those veiled threats.

“Everything that was possible to cut off has already been cut off by Russia,” said Valeriy Chaliy, deputy head of the Ukrainian presidential administration.

...

“Not all roads lead to Russia,” Chaliy said. “Ukraine has other neighbors with which collaboration is possible without fear of getting stabbed in the back at any moment.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/as-ukraine-truce-holds-russia-vows-economic-pain/2014/12/15/cf450be2-8483-11e4-abcf-5a3d7b3b20b8_story.html?tid=pm_world_pop
User avatar
Sixstrings
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 15160
Joined: Tue 08 Jul 2008, 03:00:00

Re: Russian central bank raises interest rate to 17%

Unread postby AgentR11 » Tue 16 Dec 2014, 09:32:19

You keep saying Russia is doomed, yet they keep on keepin' on. The Yen trades at 120 / US$; it had been in the 80's. no one cares, because the Yen is freely floated and unmanipulated, so salaries and goods are labeled in appropriate prices, and the high school kid can buy a burger when they feel like it.

Its the same thing I point out to the doomers about the US potential for hyperinflation if there was too much cash from QE or whatever. In the digital world, it DOES NOT MATTER whether the hamburger costs $5 or $500; the only thing that is important is that the currency is allowed to be at whatever the market dictates its value as; and that it is fully liquid at that market rate. My original guess was the ruble should be at 50 with a low of 70 on the way to stabilizing at a free float position; with the oil price as low as it is, maybe 60 and 80 are better numbers, but the actual number isn't important, what is important is that the ruble floats and trades freely.

Russia will be fine, as long as they don't take Western vulture advice and resume a trading range or capital control policy. One off buys to smooth the descent are OK, though I think a pointless waste of reserves.

Yes, transition from a corrupt command economy designed to inflate the assets and egos of London dwelling Russian oligarchs, to a market economy with a free market currency and low regulation is very painful. But, the alternative is death/collapse at this point; a collapse that has reasonable odds of resulting in a nuclear exchange. (watch what you're cheering for, you might get it.)

I like the Russian trade guys reaction to a few folks labeling their products in Russia in effective dollars. He didn't say they shouldn't adjust the prices, but called them lazy for not taking the time to write price labels. Its apparently illegal to price things in not-ruble. I've never thought about it, but other than manageable income and sales tax complications, is there law in the US about pricing in not-dollar?
Yes we are, as we are,
And so shall we remain,
Until the end.
AgentR11
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6372
Joined: Tue 22 Mar 2011, 09:15:51
Location: East Texas

Re: Russian central bank raises interest rate to 17%

Unread postby AgentR11 » Tue 16 Dec 2014, 09:39:28

I'll do a six and make a double post. lol.
And add a dohboi, keep in mind that.. too.

Keep in mind that the number on the interest rate must be seen in context of the inflation rate. Inflation is 10%'ish domestically. 17% there would feel like a 7% here; kinda high, but not nearly as outrageous as it might look.
Yes we are, as we are,
And so shall we remain,
Until the end.
AgentR11
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6372
Joined: Tue 22 Mar 2011, 09:15:51
Location: East Texas

Re: Russian central bank raises interest rate to 17%

Unread postby AgentR11 » Tue 16 Dec 2014, 09:51:33

And to seal the multiposting deal...

Six.. you're here predicting doom for a $2trillion dollar economy, fully self sufficient in raw materials, calorie staples, and required infrastructure as a result of currency fluctuations; and you don't know what REPO means in this context?

Just google-wiki "repo rate" central bank.

Its basically a quicky loan that explicitly will not be refinanced. They're trying to inflict some pain on speculators who are using borrowed rubles to amplify the swings in the market. Basic arbitrage if you could predict that the ruble would be 100/US$ in January, you'd borrow rubles from the central bank now at the repo rate, trade to dollars (amplifying the drop), then in January trade back to rubles, pay the repo, and keep the balance as free profit. 17% rate just put risk back into trying to guess that future value.

I'd be a little worried as a speculator at this point in the trading value; those 400 hundred billion US$ of reserves + gold and whatever else they have, can buy a huge quantity of rubles at 70 per or 100 per; a system altering amount of rubles if they choose to do so. There be some exposure to serious pain for not-friends of Putin if they aren't careful.
Yes we are, as we are,
And so shall we remain,
Until the end.
AgentR11
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6372
Joined: Tue 22 Mar 2011, 09:15:51
Location: East Texas

Re: Russian central bank raises interest rate to 17%

Unread postby AgentR11 » Tue 16 Dec 2014, 13:24:10

FT had an interesting piece from Moscow, kinda a man on the street thing. What was interesting to me, is that it fits perfectly with what I'm thinking is going on. One exemplar was trying to get his savings into dollars/euros as quickly as possible (with the banks apparently making *quick* a challenge, though not prohibiting it either); turns out he also has a mortgage denominated in.. Dollars. LOL. OTOH, another upper-middle class interviewee was working very hard to convert her rubles into... get this.. FURNITURE. Whats even funnier, is that furniture girl (basically a placid socker mom bargain hunting) was adamant that all of her discomfort was the fault of the USA, directly named us the *enemy*. Not partner, not competitor. ENEMY.

You couldn't draw a more perfect picture, on plan, for what Putin is up to.

As a resource state, you can do one of two things. Spain of long ago, and Saudi Arabia of this era; both used their raw materials to purchase finished product from others; and once the raw materials run out, they fall into a guaranteed, essentially permanent depression. Unfixable. The other model is to consume your raw material production internally and create a large portion of your own finished goods. Russia is entirely capable of producing modern consumer products, but up till now, anything you produced in Russia could not compete on price, even with goods from the EU. So Bob the German makes a widgit, and his cost, in rubles, was say 100; in the same instance, Bob the Russian's cost, in rubles, would be 200. Not due to any genetic or cultural defect, but simple because 1 Euro used to cost 40 ruble instead of 80 ruble. You know what is true today? 1 Euro costs 85 ruble. If we kinda hand-wave adjust for the modest deflation in Europe, and a likely real inflationary (wartime expenditure) pressure in Russia; the numbers match up.

Putin is forcing Russia to give up the leisure and lazy life of sucking on the resource export bottle. There will be no more cheap trips to London or Paris to buy luxury goods with half the labor that it should cost. No more imported whole milk that costs less and has better quality than anything a Moscow distributor could do with crappy powder. Stuff is gonna cost what it SHOULD cost. Once that happens, Bob the Russian can compete with Bob the German on price. Once that happens, Moscow really can join the modern, industrial world.

All of that requires one thing.

The central bank MUST NOT choose a value for the ruble. The market must choose, willing buyer, willing seller; nothing more, nothing less. A market valued ruble at 500/US$ would be far less destructive than a pegged value holding at 40. That pegged value was destroying Russia, as surely and as rapidly as a bucket full of meth would destroy some guy living in a trailrr. 40 is NOT good. It is catastrophically bad.

The corollary here though, is kinda bad for Europe. If you think the US has wasteful personal transportation and heating habits; Russia will make us look like Certified Green Party members. They really could, quite easily, get to the point of having no gas, nor oil to export; not because of failing production; but because they very well could consume every last bit of it. Worse... they have a massive, lightly populated region, where they could build countless coal fired generation plants (export electricity to China and Friends), where the prevailing global circulation would remove all the pollutants that make people want to be green, and dump them in the ocean far away from most of the population of Russia. You think Frozen Russia is concerned about Global Warming and the end of the US bread basket ????

That's where I see Putin's intention headed. If he can survive the enhanced displeasure of those tied to Western properties, and Western mortgages... and ruble income, that is.
Yes we are, as we are,
And so shall we remain,
Until the end.
AgentR11
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6372
Joined: Tue 22 Mar 2011, 09:15:51
Location: East Texas

Re: Russian central bank raises interest rate to 17%

Unread postby Mesuge » Tue 16 Dec 2014, 14:20:05

Good points above, agree.
However, the fact it was a major blunder not anticipate this in advance and waste of reserves on the defence (lol Russia pushed in the corner) is beyond me. The take home message is the world will be much different place overnight. It's going to be "on enemy terms" onwards only, that was the last non nuclear bullet in the west arsenal against Russia, and they used it. Game on.
PS also, the US is prolly going to start exporting lethal weapons to Ukraine..
User avatar
Mesuge
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1500
Joined: Tue 01 Nov 2005, 04:00:00
Location: Euro high horse bastard on the run

Re: Russian central bank raises interest rate to 17%

Unread postby AgentR11 » Tue 16 Dec 2014, 15:00:45

About the wasting of reserves... I do agree it was dumb, but I can also see the rationale and the possibility for Putin Inc to periodically profit. If Putin and friends know the amount and timing of the interventions ahead of time; they can make a nice personal profit on the side with some quick arbitrage themselves, using their own funds. Insider trading works as well there, as it does here, and you won't get caught over there if you're part of Putin Inc. In addition, some of their legislative reps have made a stink about the lack of central bank action, so it helps to have something to point to, and say, "see, we did something, and it was pointless. So sit down and shut up, ride will be bumpy, but the destination glorious."

On export of weapons... I see no reason why we shouldn't profit from this mess, we make some of the best "lethal aid" in the world. OTOH, Ukraine's command and control is so pathetically incompetent, I expect half of it to be sold to the rebels, and the other half to be blown up trying to drag race across an open airfield.

Dats ok though, long as we get paid.
Yes we are, as we are,
And so shall we remain,
Until the end.
AgentR11
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6372
Joined: Tue 22 Mar 2011, 09:15:51
Location: East Texas

Re: Russian central bank raises interest rate to 17%

Unread postby AgentR11 » Tue 16 Dec 2014, 16:21:55

Quote from Novak (Russian Energy Minister varmint) via RT (lol source, but he said what he said)
He said exports from Russia could also fall due to increased domestic demand.
"Russia does not increase the supply of oil in the world market ... We plan to maintain the volume of production at the 2014 level. At the same time exports decreased due to growing domestic consumption," said Novak.

Russia is pricing out Western goods, consumers are left with affordable domestic stuff, and impossibly expensive foreign, non-essential stuff.

When they're done; they can go free trade both EU and Eurasian and the EU won't be able to undercut Russian manufacturers on cost.

Listening to the disinterest of the Central Bank is even more entertaining than listening to the whining of the English speaking analysts. There's good odds the Central Bank was so "concerned" about the ruble's fall, that they introduced more rubles (625bn) for Rosneft to use in refinancing, ie, they helped drive it down more, on purpose. Stick a fork in that Dollar mortgage.

addenda
http://www.cbr.ru/Eng/hd_base/Default.a ... valint_day
Looking at their irregular purchases of ruble for dollar over the past week and some... The total ruble purchase looks suspiciously close to the amount Rosneft needed for its refi. Sneaky ba********s.
Yes we are, as we are,
And so shall we remain,
Until the end.
AgentR11
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6372
Joined: Tue 22 Mar 2011, 09:15:51
Location: East Texas

Re: Russian central bank raises interest rate to 17%

Unread postby radon1 » Tue 16 Dec 2014, 17:10:24

The things that go on are so awful, that they look comic.

At least it is not boring.
radon1
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2054
Joined: Thu 27 Jun 2013, 06:09:44

Re: Russian central bank raises interest rate to 17%

Unread postby Withnail » Tue 16 Dec 2014, 17:21:05

AgentR11 wrote: OTOH, another upper-middle class interviewee was working very hard to convert her rubles into... get this.. FURNITURE. Whats even funnier, is that furniture girl (basically a placid socker mom bargain hunting) was adamant that all of her discomfort was the fault of the USA, directly named us the *enemy*. Not partner, not competitor. ENEMY.



Yes, it does seem that the USA and Russia are at war now to all intents and purposes.

And it's a war of aggression launched by the USA, needless to say.
Withnail
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1306
Joined: Sat 19 Jul 2014, 16:45:10

Re: Russian central bank raises interest rate to 17%

Unread postby radon1 » Tue 16 Dec 2014, 17:26:52

Withnail wrote:

Yes, it does seem that the USA and Russia are at war now to all intents and purposes.

And it's a war of aggression launched by the USA, needless to say.


Oh, man, relax, don't be ridiculous.
radon1
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2054
Joined: Thu 27 Jun 2013, 06:09:44

Re: Russian central bank raises interest rate to 17%

Unread postby radon1 » Tue 16 Dec 2014, 17:44:34

Sechin of Rosneft told today that the ruble crash was not his fault, and that Rosneft spend $75b of its $118b dollar revenue buying rubles this year. He looked genuinely offended. Almost like a child.
radon1
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2054
Joined: Thu 27 Jun 2013, 06:09:44

Next

Return to Geopolitics & Global Economics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 27 guests

cron