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Washington’s Frozen War Against Russia

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Washington’s Frozen War Against Russia

Unread postby dissident » Sun 14 Dec 2014, 18:17:00

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/12/09/ ... st-russia/

Worse Than Cold War

The neocons who manipulate America’s clueless politicians have not got us into a new Cold War. It is much worse. The long rivalry with the Soviet Union was “Cold” because of MAD, Mutual Assured Destruction. Both Washington and Moscow were perfectly aware that “Hot” war meant nuclear exchanges that would destroy everybody.

This time around, the United States thinks it already “won” the Cold War and seems to be drunk with self-confidence that it can win again. It is upgrading its nuclear weapons force and building a “nuclear shield” on Russia’s border whose only purpose can be to give the United States a first strike capacity – the ability to knock out any Russian retaliation against a U.S. nuclear attack. This cannot work, but it weakens deterrence.

The danger of outright war between the two nuclear powers is actually much greater than during the Cold War. We are now in a sort of Frozen War, because nothing the Russians say or do can have any effect. The neocons who manufacture U.S. policy behind the scenes have invented a totally fictional story about Russian “aggression” which the President of the United States, the mass media and now the Congress have accepted and endorsed. Russian leaders have responded with honesty, truth and common sense, remaining calm despite the invective thrown at them. It has done no good whatsoever. The positions are frozen. When reason fails, force follows. Sooner or later.


Things are going south and quickly.
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Re: Washington’s Frozen War Against Russia

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 14 Dec 2014, 18:38:35

Yet again the US turns resource grabbing into a moral crusade. 'That evil Russia must be stopped from grabbing territory from sovereign Ukraine, at any cost!' Translation, 'We cannot stand by & let our old enemy become successful through being the world's largest energy exporter!' The indignation over Ukraine sovereignty by the US is a joke. When it is difficult to count how many times the US has trampled over other countries sovereignty; yet formerly USSR in Afghanistan decades ago & now Ukraine, are the only such territorial activities by Russia since the Second World War. In the first instance, no way known was the USA or anyone else going to help Russia broker a deal to get an Indian Ocean sea port, something which probably could have been done; in the second instance protecting millions of its natives annexed in a country which has been taken over by people who want to kill them. Both relatively benign motives compared to the motives shown in US intervention around the world in dozens of countries in the same period. Utter hypocrisy & hubris.
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Re: Washington’s Frozen War Against Russia

Unread postby ennui2 » Mon 15 Dec 2014, 16:45:16

This woman purports to know the intentions and thoughts of people with such clairvoyant levels of clarity that it reads like a Tom Clancy novel. It's nothing but straw-men propaganda. I mean, the language here is absurdly slanted.

Russian leaders have responded with honesty, truth and common sense, remaining calm despite the invective thrown at them.


Image

I can practically visualize the halos this woman is painting over the heads of Putin and company, or maybe the crown of thorns in portraying them as martyrs. Get real...
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Re: Washington’s Frozen War Against Russia

Unread postby Graeme » Wed 21 Jan 2015, 16:36:37

Ukraine president says 9000 Russian troops are backing separatists

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has said more than 9000 Russian troops were backing pro-Russia separatists in the country's east.

The claim came after NATO called on Russia to withdraw its troops after seeing a recent increase in tanks and heavy military equipment in Ukraine.

The country has had days of heavy fighting that has left an already shaky September truce in tatters and forced the pro-Western leader to cut short his visit to the World Economic Forum in Davos.



smh
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Re: Washington’s Frozen War Against Russia

Unread postby Strummer » Wed 21 Jan 2015, 16:46:12

9000 troops, yet not a single one was captured prisoner or at least found as a identifiable dead body? not just recently, but in the whole almost a year of fighting? right.
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Re: Washington’s Frozen War Against Russia

Unread postby Withnail » Wed 21 Jan 2015, 17:08:44

Graeme wrote:Ukraine president says 9000 Russian troops are backing separatists

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has said more than 9000 Russian troops were backing pro-Russia separatists in the country's east.

The claim came after NATO called on Russia to withdraw its troops after seeing a recent increase in tanks and heavy military equipment in Ukraine.

The country has had days of heavy fighting that has left an already shaky September truce in tatters and forced the pro-Western leader to cut short his visit to the World Economic Forum in Davos.



smh


Russia would not send 9,000 trops without all their equipment and air cover.

Ukraine is losing the war against the separatists, so they fantasise about Russain troops.

The reality is if Russia entered the war, they would drive straight for Kiev, and the Ukrainian forces would run or be killed.
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Re: Washington’s Frozen War Against Russia

Unread postby dissident » Wed 21 Jan 2015, 18:58:51

Graeme wrote:Ukraine president says 9000 Russian troops are backing separatists

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko has said more than 9000 Russian troops were backing pro-Russia separatists in the country's east.

The claim came after NATO called on Russia to withdraw its troops after seeing a recent increase in tanks and heavy military equipment in Ukraine.

The country has had days of heavy fighting that has left an already shaky September truce in tatters and forced the pro-Western leader to cut short his visit to the World Economic Forum in Davos.



smh


Yeah, "credible" information from a "credible" source (SMH) parroting a "credible" regime.

Doesn't take much to lead saps such as you around by the nose.

Do you really think (I doubt you think at all) that Russian forces would have no air cover and would just deploy in some useless amount of 9,000 troops? If Russia was going to invade it would send 100,000 troops and not stop until it rolled past Kiev all the way to the Polish-Ukrainian border. And there would be fuck all that Uncle Sam would be able to do about. The nuclear ICBMs can fly both ways you know.

BTW, Graeme, if there is all this "solid" he said, she said "evidence" of Russian forces in Ukraine, why is the USA not making a ruckus at the Security Council? Parroting by the joke that is the western media these days is supposed to be good enough or something.
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Re: Washington’s Frozen War Against Russia

Unread postby Graeme » Wed 21 Jan 2015, 19:15:01

Reuters also report the same story. I'll try to watch developments.

Ukraine says its forces attacked by Russian troops

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko was cutting short a foreign trip on Wednesday after Kiev accused Russian regular forces of attacking its troops in the country's east.

The accusation against Moscow on Tuesday was one of the boldest assertions yet by Ukraine of direct Russian military involvement since the conflict between pro-Russian separatists and government forces began more than nine months ago.

"In spite of preliminary agreements, Ukrainian military units were attacked in the north of the anti-terrorist operational zone by regular military formations of the armed forces of Russia," the spokesman, Andriy Lysenko, said.


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Re: Washington’s Frozen War Against Russia

Unread postby Withnail » Wed 21 Jan 2015, 20:08:22

Graeme wrote:"In spite of preliminary agreements, Ukrainian military units were attacked in the north of the anti-terrorist operational zone by regular military formations of the armed forces of Russia," the spokesman, Andriy Lysenko, said.


If they were really fighting Russian regular forces, we wouldn't be hearing about them being 'engaged' with Russian forces.
We would just be hearing about them being dead.

An engagement with Russian forces is not some leisurely weeks-long standoff. It's a brutal and rapid assault with overwhelming firepower followed by massed tanks rolling over your positions.

They cant admit that the militia is kicking their asses. But they need to face reality.
Last edited by Withnail on Wed 21 Jan 2015, 20:15:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Washington’s Frozen War Against Russia

Unread postby dissident » Wed 21 Jan 2015, 20:15:03

WARNING GRAPHIC:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=8 ... G0fiKKFYNE

Shelling of Stakhanov by regime forces. You can see the smoking MLRS rocket buried in the pavement. Here are a couple victims of the Barack Obama sponsored regime in Kiev:

Image

Obama is a posturing twat.
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Re: Washington’s Frozen War Against Russia

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 22 Jan 2015, 05:57:39

dissident wrote:WARNING GRAPHIC:


Is it Russian tv that keeps showing these things?

If so, let me ask you: to what end do they want to inflame the Russian people so much, with such graphic content that is not objective and NEVER showing a Russian-supplied rebel shell or missile landing into a Ukrainian?

Can you answer that, why it's one sided? And why a government would do that, just own all the media and half a billion dollars for RT, to try to brainwash english speakers in the West too.

Can you just tell me that, about how much coverage on Russian tv is given to victims on the OTHER side of the conflict, that got blown up by a Russian shell or missile?

Can you see that maybe the content is so graphic that it's a "foxnews" type thing and people are just being manipulated to be enraged and want war?

Is it not unlike our George Bush years and all the yellowcake uranium and the whole world telling us we are crazy, but we would not listen?

And now Russia is just off on some nationalist trajectory and they've got foxnews type tv and the whole world is again telling them to chill it out, and Russia will not listen.

Difference between the US and Russia -- Russians are a good ten times more reactionary than we are, and we're plenty reactionary as it is, so I'm just saying. This is dangerous, how much Putin is stoking and ramping everyone up and it's a feeding frenzy of all these supposed horrible things "Kiev" is doing.

Could you take a look at this video and do you know anything about what NATO says, that's on Russian tv all the time, that things are being made up:

Ukraine: Fighting the information war
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qszwrXtVLv4


If Russia doesn't want civilian deaths in east Ukraine, then Russia needs to STOP the fight that's coming into Ukraine from Russia, rather than FUELING it.

Putin can end it all with a stroke of the pen, he is just dragging it out for maximum advantage and everybody knows it.

Why is it that a radio station can't veer off into talking about unapproved things about Ukraine, and if they do the kremlin will pull their license?

Do you admit the effect it can have on a population to just hear nonstop war propaganda with no balance to it all? To JUST have a "foxnews," with no "msnbc." :?: :?: :?: :?:

This is dangerous, Russian gov has its people thinking the whole world is out to get them and only Russians are right and everyone else is wrong. Don't you think?
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Re: Washington’s Frozen War Against Russia

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 22 Jan 2015, 06:42:28

Dissident.

You just link videos, and never real journalism -- counterpunch is opinion and it's ayahuasca noam chomsky RT'ish far out groovy fringe stuff.

It's not the New York Times.

Just because counterpunch says a nato missile shield is so that nato can first strike Russia, does not make it so.

And about your linked video, OF COURSE that death is horrible. OF COURSE the war is horrible. So how about pulling out the Russian shells and missiles and troops that Russian gov says are not there? That would be a start.

How about people not coming off the train from Moscow to start with, and setting up "separatist republics" where they are the leader of it?

Here's the thing -- you can post 1,000 horrible videos of war victims on the separatist side, and then someone else could just look on youtube and find 1,000 horrible videos of UKRAINIAN war victims. Like that bus that got shelled. All this artillery both sides use IS SOVIET ERA AND NOTORIOUSLY INNACURATE, for starters.

So what is the infowar then, trading horrible videos? And one side posts videos of shelling victims on their side, and the other side posts youtube videos of their shelling victims? And then we just have a bunch of videos of victims of RUSSIAN and UKRAINIAN soviet era artillery?

Your video mentions Stakhanov. I did a news search and it's the "cossack republic" that someone came in from Moscow and set up, but the people that live there are not cossacks. Article about it:



Here's an article about the shelling in your video that you posted, I'm not sure about this news source, I think it's Asian:

10 killed in fresh clashes in Ukraine

Heavy artillery fire rocked the town of Stakhanov in Lugansk region Wednesday morning, killing at least three civilians and wounding 12, Xinhua quoted the authorities as saying.

Ukrainian military spokesperson Andriy Lysenko told reporters that the situation in the combat area remained tense as insurgents continued the attempts to widen the radius of territories they control.

"Over the past 24 hours, one Ukrainian soldier has been killed and 40 wounded in clashes," Lysenko said during a briefing.

The self-styled leader of the self-proclaimed Lugansk People's Republic, Igor Plotnytsky, said that an insurgent fighter was killed in the latest clashes with government troops.

The intensification of the fighting in eastern Ukraine began two weeks ago after insurgents launched an offensive to seize the government-controlled airport in Donetsk.

The warring sides in the conflict, which has killed over 4,800 people since mid-April, are repeatedly blaming each other for not complying with a ceasefire agreement signed in September and shelling in residential areas of the conflict-torn cities and towns.
http://www.newkerala.com/news/2015/fullnews-9266.html


I don't know what can be said, about this. YES, the war is horrible. Now there's some news about Russian multi rocket launch systems sent in from Russia. Is that going to make the war better?

Ukraine says the rebels launched an offensive and are trying to expand the territory beyond the Minsk agreement demarcation.

So, I guess, Ukraine does an offensive back. It's war. The artillery on both sides is *inaccurate*. It's from the SOVIET UNION times.

It's war, in populated areas, inaccurate shells are going to land on some homes or maybe that BUS FULL OF PEOPLE that Ukraine is so angry about, and blames the rebels for.
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Re: Washington’s Frozen War Against Russia

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 22 Jan 2015, 07:15:24

SeaGypsy wrote:Yet again the US turns resource grabbing into a moral crusade.


People that live on the continent of Europe, that say they want the same kind of vote and democracy and civil rights that you have, and want real democracy and not dictatorship, is a genuine "moral crusade."
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Re: Washington’s Frozen War Against Russia

Unread postby Withnail » Thu 22 Jan 2015, 07:58:35

Sixstrings wrote:
SeaGypsy wrote:Yet again the US turns resource grabbing into a moral crusade.


People that live on the continent of Europe, that say they want the same kind of vote and democracy and civil rights that you have, and want real democracy and not dictatorship, is a genuine "moral crusade."


But Ukraine was already a democracy.

The last election prior to the coup was monitored by the EU and others and no major problems were found.
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Re: Washington’s Frozen War Against Russia

Unread postby Quinny » Thu 22 Jan 2015, 08:06:32

Think this is what he really means WN!

Withnail wrote:
Sixstrings wrote:
SeaGypsy wrote:Yet again the US turns resource grabbing into a moral crusade.


People that live on the continent of Europe, that say they want the same kind of vote and democracy and civil rights that you have, and want real democracy and vote for pro US leaders who will agree to burden the population with IMF debt and enslave them in perpetuity and not dictatorship, is a genuine "moral crusade."


But Ukraine was already a democracy.

The last election prior to the coup was monitored by the EU and others and no major problems were found.
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Re: Washington’s Frozen War Against Russia

Unread postby radon1 » Thu 22 Jan 2015, 10:24:37

Sixstrings wrote:
it can have on a population to just hear nonstop war propaganda with no balance to it all?


A lot of it is propaganda, but not all. They do invite groups of politicians from Ukraine whose view are anti-Kremlin. Besides, there is a number of media outlets whose views and reporting are outright anti-Kremlin.

And you can watch BBC and euronews and Ukrainian channels and whatnot in Russia, they are all easily accessible even without an additional charge.

This is dangerous, Russian gov has its people thinking the whole world is out to get them and only Russians are right and everyone else is wrong. Don't you think?


Russian people do not think that the entire world is out to get them, Six, relax. A group of psychopaths is not the entire world.

So, you cannot stop bending the reality to fit it into your desired narrative. Hopeless.

Bit of CNN reporting

http://www.gemistvoornmt.nl/a.aspx/1421892472/12
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Re: Washington’s Frozen War Against Russia

Unread postby radon1 » Thu 22 Jan 2015, 13:16:00

Merikans on their new trolling tour - don't know how else to characterize it.

Deeply regrettable that the gentleman lost his arm. He now got an award from the dark overseas master for losing his arm and for killing other Ukrainians.

What a slavish abyss.

http://youtu.be/ZxNa4wpgWL8
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Re: Washington’s Frozen War Against Russia

Unread postby Withnail » Thu 22 Jan 2015, 13:32:21

radon1 wrote:Merikans on their new trolling tour - don't know how else to characterize it.

Deeply regrettable that the gentleman lost his arm. He now got an award from the dark overseas master for losing his arm and for killing other Ukrainians.

What a slavish abyss.

http://youtu.be/ZxNa4wpgWL8


The East Europeans are new to alliances with America and don't yet understand that America's promises are lies.
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Re: Washington’s Frozen War Against Russia

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 22 Jan 2015, 18:13:03

(to dissident: I don't take issue with you posting those videos, it's information, I am just saying someone could just post a bunch of vids of victims from the other side too -- so that's not objective journalism to know what's really going on overall.

I don't watch horrible videos from either side, those are just meant to pump people up and inflame. It's war propaganda and both sides do it. What I would look for, would be just an objective report on the overall situation.)

radon1 wrote:They do invite groups of politicians from Ukraine whose view are anti-Kremlin. Besides, there is a number of media outlets whose views and reporting are outright anti-Kremlin.

And you can watch BBC and euronews and Ukrainian channels and whatnot in Russia, they are all easily accessible even without an additional charge.


Well, ok, I trust you radon I'll take your word for it. All I know is what is said ABOUT Russian tv, and the various outrageous clips one sees now and then. The narrative is out there anyway, that Russian state tv is "all propaganda."

I'd wonder if on the main russian language news channels if the following is ever discussed:

* The fact that there are Russian troops in Ukraine, and the issue about the mothers' groups in Russia saying they know there are troops because their sons died in combat and they have graves in Russia. In USSR history, in the Afghan war, (saw a documentary about this), the kremlin used tell people the soldiers died in a training exercise -- to conceal the casualities in the war.

* And I'd just wonder if the NATO video I posted is right or not, is Russian tv like over the top talk radio / alex jones like over here. Do they outright make things up sometimes and just inflame people with graphic footage of shellings etc -- while maybe never showing a Ukrainian victim. I don't know the answer to these questions, but the narrative is there that Russian media is the source of the inflaming. And we've certainly seen Russian diplomats right at the UN sec council just spinning total baseless fictions that nobody believes.

Europe Mulls a Russian Language TV Channel to Counter Moscow Propaganda
Diplomats feel they are losing the information war to Russia
http://time.com/3673548/europe-russian-language-tv/


'Counter Russian propaganda' MEPs tell EU
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30833590


UK, Denmark back EU counter-propaganda plan
https://euobserver.com/foreign/127155


I don't know what the truth is, but media is very powerful and can manipulate; Russians call it propaganda, we call it "narratives" and "spin" and "advertising" -- if news channels just showed dog attacks 24/7 then everyone would think there's a crisis of dog attacks and would be up and arms over that.

If the news shows nothing but crime, then people think crime is up -- when maybe the facts show it's actually down, overall.

If Russian news just shows horrible graphic shelling victims all day, then maybe that's how you get thousands of Russians so mad they get in the car to go fight in the Ukraine.

Russian people do not think that the entire world is out to get them, Six, relax. A group of psychopaths is not the entire world.


I think as long as there's internet access then it'll be okay, overall. There has been an overall decline though, on real journalism, everywhere. And it seems worse with Ukraine and Russia. We've lost so many newspapers here too though, but still, if something is going down in the US then there is so much honest objective journalism that you can know what's going on. Whereas Ukraine, for various reasons, just does not have robust media. So nobody knows the truth, there are no objective journalists giving the whole picture.
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Re: Washington’s Frozen War Against Russia

Unread postby Withnail » Thu 22 Jan 2015, 18:22:38

Sixstrings wrote: We've lost so many newspapers here too though, but still, if something is going down in the US then there is so much honest objective journalism that you can know what's going on.


American newspapers, who could doubt their unswerving search for objective truth.

They even managed to find evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, in defiance of the UN's findings. Remarkable.
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