[Ferretlover]

Nothing like doing a little preliminary scouting!

Putin is at it again

[SeaGypsy]

http://www.news.com.au/national/russian ... 7120928528

A CONVOY of heavily armed Russian war ships, including at least one high powered missile cruiser, are cruising international waters to Australia’s north, Defence has confirmed.
Defence is monitoring the fleet of four ships, which include a cruiser, a destroyer, a tug boat and a refueller, which were believed to be in the Coral Sea, south of Bougainville, Papua New Guinea on Wednesday evening.
Australian naval ships HMAS Parramatta and HMAS Stuart were ordered to “crash sail” to the Coral Sea earlier this week in a bid to “greet” the Russian fleet. It is believed HMAS Parramatta arrived last night and HMAS Stuart was a day away.

It is understood Mr Putin has ordered the fleet to show-off the might of the Russian navy in the wake of Australia’s international condemnation of Mr Putin after MH17 was shot down by Russian backed rebels.

[vox_mundi]

Things are getting exciting all over ...

Russia to Fly Bombers to U.S. Gulf as Ukraine Escalates
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-11-1 ... n-war.html

Russia plans to extend long-range bomber patrols as far as the Gulf of Mexico and the eastern Pacific Ocean, its defense minister said, as NATO accused Vladimir Putin’s government of sending more troops into Ukraine.

With Ukraine warning its conflict is close to returning to open war, Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu said his country’s military will start conducting regular long-range bomber patrols along Russia’s borders and over the Arctic Ocean. His ministry rejected an assertion from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization’s top general that it was moving combat troops and heavy weapons into Ukraine’s rebel-held east.

“In this situation, we have to maintain a military presence in the western part of the Atlantic and the eastern part of the Arctic Ocean, in the Caribbean and in the Gulf of Mexico,” Shoigu said, according to a statement on the Russian Defense Ministry website.

[Sixstrings]

Australian naval ships HMAS Parramatta and HMAS Stuart were ordered to “crash sail” to the Coral Sea earlier this week in a bid to “greet” the Russian fleet. It is believed HMAS Parramatta arrived last night and HMAS Stuart was a day away.

It is understood Mr Putin has ordered the fleet to show-off the might of the Russian navy in the wake of Australia’s international condemnation of Mr Putin after MH17 was shot down by Russian backed rebels.

So they're sailing these warships all the way from Siberia to the other end of the planet, Australia.

At least in the gulf of mexico they can say they're visiting Cuba. But there's only one reason to send warships all the way, out of the way, to Australia and that's to bully Australians.

It's really rather outrageous. This is just ahead of the G20 in Australia. To which Putin was cordially invited, and he sends warships ahead of it, what's up with that.

What are they honestly expecting here, that Australians will feel bullied and intimidated and will be more careful about ever saying anything that Putin won't like?

I mean seriously, these are just mafia / gang tactics. You cross the gang lord and what's he do, he cruises by your house at night, slow, with some homeboys -- to intimidate you.

If Australia ever sees a US warship in its waters then at least you know it's on your side, and always will be.

Now you've got Russia doing this, spending the money and going to the trouble of sending warships to the end of the earth in Australia for no possible good reason but to bully Australians. There is no other possible justification to be down there.

Australia is going to have to wake up and spend some money on defense. This should be a wakeup call. You really are vulnerable to rising nationalist powers that have warships and nuclear weapons. You're stuck down there at the end of the earth all by yourselves; Obama won't even defend the gulf of mexico or our own borders from Russian incursion -- so I hate to say it but I don't think he'd be there for Australia.

You may be on your own. More concerning is China, and the navy they are building, and when the day comes that China starts gunboat diplomacy with Australia.

I don't know how good those Japanese submarines are, but if those are good subs -- (I've read they are and they are very quiet too and Australia's current subs are notoriously loud and easy to ping) -- then Australia needs to buy a bunch of them and have some kind of real defense. Subs are best way to go.. and then get some aegis cruisers that can protect you from incoming missiles, whether landbased or nuke cruise bomber missiles or ballistic.

The Japanese have a really good aegis destroyer (or is it a cruiser) too -- Australia should buy a couple of those.

Time to defend yourselves, guys.

EDIT: And another thing, this is one that can't be blamed on the USA. Australia is getting bullied because it spoke up about the citizens it lost on that airliner -- Australian people that were shot out of the sky with a Russian missile. And Putin doesn't want you to say anything about that, and if you do then he sends the Russian Navy to the end of the earth to bully you. It's outrageous.

And the upcoming Russian bomber patrols in the GULF OF DARN MEXICO is pretty outrageous too.

That *was never done even in the cold war, not once, not one Russian bomber ever in the Gulf of Mexico like that flying off our borders*, and what's next are these bombers going to start CROSSING American airspace too, like they have with Sweden, like they have with Denmark, like they have with Finland, like they have with Lithuania?

It's ridiculous, why is nobody talking about this, we can't have Russian nuke bombers in the Gulf of Mexico.

[Sixstrings]

Things are getting exciting all over ...

And I've been warning about it for a solid year now, and everyone just says I'm crazy, but it just keeps getting worse and worse. I really hate to see this.

I really know how the climate change doomers around here feel -- you see something coming, you see it a mile away, but nobody else sees it and it just gets worse and worse and they still don't see it.

[Sixstrings]

This is getting ridiculous.

Where is our government on this.

Russian Bombers will be flying in the gulf of mexico.

It just gets worse and worse, here's the latest, Russian bases to fly drones around Alaska:

Russia to Open Arctic Military Drone Base 420 Miles off the Alaskan Coast

http://www.newsweek.com/russia-open-arctic-military-drone-base-420-miles-alaskan-coast-284240

Pravda, Russia has a "nuclear surprise" for us:

Russia prepares nuclear surprise for NATO

In early 2013, the Americans withdrew the last group of heavy Abrams tanks from Europe. In NATO countries, over the last 20 years, one new tank would replace 10-15 old, yet still capable, tanks. At the same time, Russia was not decommissioning its tanks.

As a result, today Russia is the absolute leader in this regard. In mid-2014, the balance of the Defense Ministry had as many as 18,177 tanks (T-90 - 400 pcs., T-72B - 7,144 pcs., T-80 - 4,744 pcs, T-64 - 4,000 pcs, T-62 - 689 pcs, and T-55 - 1200 pcs.).

Of course, only a few thousand tanks are deployed in permanent readiness units, and most of them remain at storage bases. Yet, NATO has the same picture. Therefore, the decisive superiority of Russian tanks has not gone anywhere since the times of the USSR.

Here is another surprise. As for tactical nuclear weapons, the superiority of modern-day Russia over NATO is even stronger.

The Americans are well aware of this. They were convinced before that Russia would never rise again. Now it's too late.

To date, NATO countries have only 260 tactical nuclear weapons in the ETO. The United States has 200 bombs with a total capacity of 18 megatons. They are located on six air bases in Germany, Italy, Belgium, the Netherlands and Turkey. France has 60 more atomic bombs. That is pretty much it. Russia, according to conservative estimates, has 5,000 pieces of different classes of TNW - from Iskander warheads to torpedo, aerial and artillery warheads!

The US has 300 tactical B-61 bombs on its own territory, but this does not change the situation against the backdrop of such imbalance. The US is unable to improve it either, as it has destroyed the "Cold War legacy" - tactical nuclear missiles, land-based missiles and nuclear warheads of sea-based Tomahawk cruise missiles.
http://english.pravda.ru/russia/politics/12-11-2014/129015-russia_nato_nuclear_surprise-0/

[Subjectivist]

http://www.news.com.au/national/russian-warships-heading-to-australia/story-fncynjr2-1227120928528

A CONVOY of heavily armed Russian war ships, including at least one high powered missile cruiser, are cruising international waters to Australia’s north, Defence has confirmed.
Defence is monitoring the fleet of four ships, which include a cruiser, a destroyer, a tug boat and a refueller, which were believed to be in the Coral Sea, south of Bougainville, Papua New Guinea on Wednesday evening.
Australian naval ships HMAS Parramatta and HMAS Stuart were ordered to “crash sail” to the Coral Sea earlier this week in a bid to “greet” the Russian fleet. It is believed HMAS Parramatta arrived last night and HMAS Stuart was a day away.

It is understood Mr Putin has ordered the fleet to show-off the might of the Russian navy in the wake of Australia’s international condemnation of Mr Putin after MH17 was shot down by Russian backed rebels.

How far is this off the normal route they take when heading to Antarctica to re supply their research stations? Russia still has research teams their every Anarctica summer so it's about time for them to exchange personnel and supply up.

[dissident]

When the US Navy and NATO aircraft cruise around INTERNATIONAL WATERS AND AIRSPACE it is not news. When Russia does the same it is some sort of invasion attempt.

The recent escorting by a Portuguese Navy ship of a Russian oceanographic research vessel as it exited the straits of Gibraltar and headed north in INTERNATIONAL WATERS takes the cake for obscene NATO imperial hubris. The Portuguese EEZ is not international waters and Portugal and the rest of the NATO clowns have no right to "police" it or enforce some BS rules and "laws" they pull out of their collective a**es.

Recall the Greenpeace raid on the Gazprom oil rig in Russia's Arctic EEZ. Following NATO's example Russia should treat this as its territorial waters. But NATO wants to have its cake and eat it too. Only NATO gets to decide for all other humans on this planet.

[Sixstrings]

When the US Navy and NATO aircraft cruise around INTERNATIONAL WATERS AND AIRSPACE it is not news. When Russia does the same it is some sort of invasion attempt.

Here's the thing, when the US does that it's either because an ally wants the navy to show up and wave the flag and show some support, or, it's an adversary / enemy of the US.

Of course it's supposed to send a message, it's sabre rattling and very explicit, it's "gunboat diplomacy" and it's what Russia is doing with Australia now.

All of these bombers and flight incursions, and now warships steaming to Australia, it's classic gunboat diplomacy.

This is just too much, Russia is doing all these bomber flights and now warships to Australia but Russia wants to say "nothing to see here, move along" and that it doesn't mean anything. But of course it's to send a message, that's obvious. It's intimidation.

I don't know where this leads. If these bomber flights keep up, bombers in the gulf next, warships to Australia, if we're just going to have a cold war then at some point the West has to do the same right back.

Bomber flights along Russia's borders.

US Navy patrolling along Russia's borders.

Recall the Greenpeace raid on the Gazprom oil rig in Russia's Arctic EEZ. Following NATO's example Russia should treat this as its territorial waters.

We weren't in a cold war back then, well now it's apparent the two sides are.

So both sides deserve to have more exclusive air space and sea control zones.

We really need this, this is too much lately, USA must protect itself from Russian bombers and swarm nuclear cruise missiles. US needs a nice big massive control zone off into the ocean, on both sides, and the entire gulf of mexico. Russia is welcome to do the same, and would be wise to.

That's just my opinion though, I haven't seen that talked about anywhere, but I don't care about international waters I care about these nuclear swarm cruise missiles that are being put right off our shores and are going to be in the gulf of Mexico. We don't have to take that, why should we? Why?

[Sixstrings]

Ok I take that back, I don't really want to see US bombers doing to Russia what Russian air force is doing to the whole West.

Because I actually don't want to see WWIII. And that would be dangerous, Russia knows we'd never nuke them, but we don't know what they'd do if we start flying bombers all over their borders -- or even crossing their border sometimes, as Russia has been doing lately.

All I care about is this:

Russia and China have a strategy of "swarm" nuclear cruise missiles. These things get fired off from those bombers they have. They're designed to be a sudden sneak attack that we'd have no warning for or know what's coming, and would overwhelm our aegis and patriot missile defenses.

So I'm just not comfy about that, the idea of Russians flying nuke bombers in the gulf of mexico, when they didn't even do that back in the cold war.

And these aren't like the old fashioned bombers, these new ones fire these cruise missiles.

It's not good.

US gov needs to start figuring something out, we can't just ignore this, we have a right to be safe from these missiles.

[Sixstrings]

Am I out of line here? Am I wrong?

Are you other Americans okay with it, if Russia starts flying their nuke bombers on patrol in the gulf of darn mexico?

Where would they even take off from.. will they base in cuba.. or will they do midair refueling.

And what about all our airliners that cross the gulf, and civilian air traffic. Europe has this problem lately with Russia, because guess what *a russian bomber does not have a transponder on or report to ATC*.

A Danish airliner almost collided with a spy plane, a week ago.

What do the rest of you think, am I over the top, is it ok if there are Russian nuke bombers in the gulf of mexico for the first time in anyone's lifetime, first time in history actually.

[SeaGypsy]

You think Ukraine is worth perhaps pushing the MAD button, which is, yes, over the top.

What is it you think you know about Australia's military & defence spending or capability? Do you not realise China has a standing army bigger than our entire population? Russia not far off likewise. Both have the capability to wipe out our key infrastructure & cities in no time flat, we don't have nukes, the only valid deterrent to nukes. We aren't getting nukes either so what would be the point in ramping up spending to fend off nuclear states?

Your view of Ukraine is warped. The regime in Kiev stinks, but you can't smell it. The toys Russia sent along with Putin would be sunk in less than an hour by our airforce, the result of which would be what? So what it's gunboat diplomacy, versions of the same are the way things have been done in Oceania since pirate days. Most Australians who are paying any attention to Ukraine can get a whiff we are all being lied to by Kiev & Obummer, even our own government. There is no popular support for aggression against Russia, we just want to know who actually pulled the trigger & killed our 38 citizens & residents.

[Sixstrings]

Russian bomber missions over Gulf of Mexico would be "significant"

If Russian flights over the Gulf of Mexico come to pass, "it's very significant" because it's something they've never done before, according to one military official.

Militarily, bomber patrols over the Gulf of Mexico make little sense, which is probably why the Soviets didn't fly them during the Cold War. The U.S. would see them coming through the Greenland-Iceland Gap and would be able to track them all the way across the Atlantic, so there would be no element of surprise. For that reason, the U.S. military doesn't have much in the way of anti-aircraft defenses facing south.

A real bomber attack would come over the North Pole, launching cruise missiles as soon as planes got within range. Still, commercial radars would be able to track the bombers, and because of the new alert procedures implemented after the 9-11 terrorist attacks, there would be plenty of time to scramble jets.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/russian-bomber-missions-over-gulf-of-mexico-would-be-significant/

Here's something I'm just curious about. We have a number of defense experts on the forum, or they know more than I do anyhow, so I just wonder -- how good are the aegis systems?

From documentaries I've seen and what not, they're pretty darn good.

But what are the actual missile defenses in the US. I know Europe has missile defense, but do we? I don't even know. I've never heard about any patriot missile batteries.

To be protected we need a system the way NATO has set up in Europe.

You need aegis cruisers and patriot batteries and all the components to what NATO does in Europe, but here in the US; so do we even have that over here, or not. Or are there massive gaps to it (my guess).

The above article says there aren't even any anti aircraft defenses that face south, because it's assumed a real attack would come from over the north pole.

All the US has for anti aircraft defense in the south is just scrambling jets.

[Sixstrings]

You think Ukraine is worth perhaps pushing the MAD button, which is, yes, over the top.

Well I've been clear about that before, if they'd actually nuke us over Ukraine then yeah we gotta give them Ukraine.

And Estonia, and Latvia, and Kazakstan and then on #4 or #5 you finally have to stand up and start building a fallout shelter in the back yard. There could be a cuban missile crisis, at some point.

US needs to be spending more money on missile defense in the first place, so we're not vulnerable to these attacks -- it could be an Iran one day, or conceivably China and Russia too, swarming cruise missiles in from the north pole and coming in from the pacific too, and ICBMs going off -- our defenses would be overwhelmed, mostly by the new cruise missiles and the swarm tactic and I have to wonder why more isn't being done on missile defense.

The aegis systems are good, so throw more money into that and make it better, and build a missile defense network to protect the borders.

What is it you think you know about Australia's military & defence spending or capability? Do you not realise China has a standing army bigger than our entire population?

I saw a documentary about it, something about Australia has some old subs that are noisy. And there's domestic pressure to replace the fleet with domestically-built subs, but yet Australia doesn't have the engineers or knowhow to make top of the line quiet subs.

And that's where the Japanese come in, they do have some excellent cruisers and subs they've built, and there's a deal talked about for Australia to buy $40 billion worth of subs from Japan.

We aren't getting nukes either so what would be the point in ramping up spending to fend off nuclear states?

So that you have some kind of effective navy to send out, if a future Russian or Chinese fleet wants to do gunboat diplomacy. Not every conflict is going to be a nuclear war.

There is no popular support for aggression against Russia, we just want to know who actually pulled the trigger & killed our 38 citizens & residents.

Apparently it was the separatists, using missiles they got from Russia.

I don't know where all this is going; it's all linked to Syria too. Obama admin and all the US leadership and ME US allies are set on Assad's gotta go. The only debate is Obama admin wanted to handle ISIS in Iraq first and then turn to ISIS in Syria, and Assad. But now they say things are falling apart so fast that Assad can't wait they've got to deal with that now. That's what the latest meetings have been about. This is all per CNN by the way, lol, I've got no special knowledge of it I just have the TV on for background noise.

So.. if US is set on Assad and Syria.. Russia won't like that one bit, so there's just another problem headed down the road, it's not just Ukraine.

Not sure where it all leads, but I can't say I like the idea of Russian nuke bombers flying in the Gulf.

I guess I'll relax about it, it would just be nice to see something that engenders some confidence -- why don't we have a missile defense plan, why is nobody taking it seriously. That's all I want to see. Something like old Ronald Reagan, and yeah it's a cold war but you know it's handled -- versus a Jimmy Carter, and now Obama, and it is not being handled.

[Sixstrings]

British prime minister David Cameron and Australian prime minister Tony Abbott speak at Parliament House in Canberra today, where leaders are gathering for the G20 summit

G20 summit in Australia set to focus on Ukraine and Russia

The G20 leaders summit in Australia starting tomorrow looks like it will be a showdown between Western leaders and Russian president Vladimir Putin, following fresh reports of Russian troops pouring into eastern Ukraine.

Ukraine accused Russia today of sending soldiers and weapons to help separatist rebels in eastern Ukraine launch a new offensive in a conflict that has killed more than 4,000 people.

British prime minister David Cameron condemned Russia’s actions as unacceptable today, warning that they could draw greater sanctions from the United States and the European Union.

“I would still hope that the Russians will see sense and recognise that they should allow Ukraine to develop as an independent and free country, free to make its choices,” Mr Cameron told reporters in Canberra.
“If Russia takes a positive approach towards Ukraine’s freedom and responsibility, we could see those sanctions removed, if Russia continues to make matters worse then we could see those sanctions increased, it’s as simple as that.”

...

There had been calls from some in Australia to block Mr Putin from attending the summit given Russia’s actions in Ukraine and the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 by Russian-backed rebels, but the overwhelming consensus was against it.

Australia said this week that it was monitoring a deployment of Russian warships that was north of its waters.

“We’re seeing, regrettably, a great deal of Russian assertiveness right now in Ukraine. So, it’s not really surprising,” Australian prime minister Tony Abbott said.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/asia-pacific/g20-summit-in-australia-set-to-focus-on-ukraine-and-russia-1.2000783

[Subjectivist]

Russian bomber missions over Gulf of Mexico would be "significant"

If Russian flights over the Gulf of Mexico come to pass, "it's very significant" because it's something they've never done before, according to one military official.

Militarily, bomber patrols over the Gulf of Mexico make little sense, which is probably why the Soviets didn't fly them during the Cold War. The U.S. would see them coming through the Greenland-Iceland Gap and would be able to track them all the way across the Atlantic, so there would be no element of surprise. For that reason, the U.S. military doesn't have much in the way of anti-aircraft defenses facing south.

A real bomber attack would come over the North Pole, launching cruise missiles as soon as planes got within range. Still, commercial radars would be able to track the bombers, and because of the new alert procedures implemented after the 9-11 terrorist attacks, there would be plenty of time to scramble jets.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/russian-bomber-missions-over-gulf-of-mexico-would-be-significant/

Here's something I'm just curious about. We have a number of defense experts on the forum, or they know more than I do anyhow, so I just wonder -- how good are the aegis systems?

From documentaries I've seen and what not, they're pretty darn good.

But what are the actual missile defenses in the US. I know Europe has missile defense, but do we? I don't even know. I've never heard about any patriot missile batteries.

To be protected we need a system the way NATO has set up in Europe.

You need aegis cruisers and patriot batteries and all the components to what NATO does in Europe, but here in the US; so do we even have that over here, or not. Or are there massive gaps to it (my guess).

The above article says there aren't even any anti aircraft defenses that face south, because it's assumed a real attack would come from over the north pole.

All the US has for anti aircraft defense in the south is just scrambling jets.

Aegis is great, patriot is okay. We don't have nearly enough of either after spending all our money on drones and futile boots on the ground in Afgahnistan and Iraq.

[sparky]

.
This is nothing more than a cold war beat up ,
first ...... it's not a "fleet " it's the Varyag with an escort of one destroyer and one frigate , a tender ship is following
it barely qualifie as a task force of one capital ship
no secret why the Varyag is there either , he is providing back up and military secure communication for Prez Putin
only a schmuck would trust those embassy fancy boys .

second....... the Chinese president Xin and Obama had a few choice words about the US patrolling too close to Chines territory

From Reuters news agency " China raised issue of U.S. spy flights during military talks - Pentagon "
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/11/1 ... 8G20141114


'Chinese officials had raised the matter of U.S. military spy flights that, in Beijing's view, have come too close to Hainan, said Lieutenant Colonel Jeffrey Pool, a Pentagon spokesman.

"China did raise the issue of restricting U.S. operations in international airspace and both sides discussed their positions," Pool told Reuters.

" We have consistently opposed any Chinese proposals that would limit U.S. operations in the air or sea beyond the territorial limits of coastal states,"

Translation in plain language , we will fly and sail where-ever and when-ever we want outside the 12 nautical miles limits
the US does not recognize the law of the sea on the 200 miles territorial zone or the aerial zone of notification .
except if it's Russian planes intruding into it

[dorlomin]

Nothing like doing a little preliminary scouting!

Putin is at it again

Just mapping the EM signature of the response.

As threatening as a doddery old man with a sword vs a tank.

[Sixstrings]

I agree with the prime minister of Australia:

Australia Accuses Russia of Trying to Reclaim 'Lost Glories'

"Russia is being much more assertive now than it has been for a very long time," he said at a press conference. "Interestingly, Russia's economy is declining even as Russia's assertiveness is increasing." Abbott, who met with Putin earlier this week on the sidelines of the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation forum in Beijing, also aired details of his conversation with the Russian leader.

"One of the points that I tried to make to President Putin is that Russia would be so much more attractive if it was aspiring to be a superpower for peace and freedom and prosperity ... instead of trying to recreate the lost glories of tsarism or the old Soviet Union," he said.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/australia-accuses-russia-trying-reclaim-lost-glories-n248521

Well I can't be too far off base, I've said the exact same thing before, that if Russia wants glory and greatness then there's a better path to that -- embrace freedom, do it peacefully, cut your military budget and get some freedom going unleash innovation and progress, heck if they've got $40 billion for an olympics (half of that went into corruption) then that would put a cosmonaut on Mars.

Look to the future, not to the past and a 19th century war in Crimea.

But whatever, I'm just crazy, I guess Australia's PM is too and the PM of Finland is too, and Estonia, and Cameron, and Obama, John McCain and Mitt Romney and Joe Biden too, and Stephen Harper of Canada, our entire US state department, all the R's and D's in Congress, everybody's crazy except the leadership of Russia and China, ok then.

[Sixstrings]

US Warns Russia Over Military Flights Near American Shores

The United States has expressed renewed concern about Russian military flights near U.S. borders and has warned Moscow to abide by international law.

In a terse statement Thursday, State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki acknowledged Russia's need for routine training activity. But she said the number of flights near North America had increased in recent months, and that the United States did not consider Russia's security environment as warranting such activity.

...

Psaki's statements also followed a recent Kremlin warning that Russian long-range bombers would begin regular patrols from the Arctic Ocean to the Caribbean and the Gulf of Mexico.
http://www.voanews.com/content/us-warns-russia-military-flights-near-american-shores/2519857.html