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Energy Storage- compressed air

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Energy Storage- compressed air

Unread postby pinglepongle » Thu 20 Dec 2012, 07:04:36

Lightsail Energy

Energy Storage Startup LightSail Raises $37.3 Million From Thiel, Gates, Khosla

Not sure about this idea, but I think Danielle Fong has the balls for it!
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/a ... le/259632/


LightSail Energy, a California startup developing a compressed air renewable energy storage system, has raised a $37.3 million from a group of high-profile investors that include Peter Thiel, Bill Gates and Vinod Khosla, the company said Monday.

Co-founded in 2009 by Steve Crane and Danielle Fong, then 20, LightSail initially attracted $15 million from Khosla Ventures to create a highly efficient compressed air storage system. Like other compressed air systems, Lightsail’s technology uses motors to compress air in a tank to store energy generated by wind farms and other renewable source. When the air is heated it expands and drives pistons to generate electricity when, say, the wind isn’t blowing.

The company’s innovation is to capture the heat generated by the compression and store it in a spray of water for later use. LightSail claims that allows for a much more efficient storage system as energy does not have to be expended reheating the air.

Forbes Magazine earlier this year named Fong, 25, one of its 30 Under 30 energy innovators to watch.

Canada’s Innovacorp also participated in LightSail’s current round.

“The power grid needs cheap, reliable energy storage, but every single solution to date has been only incremental,” Khosla said in a statement. “They have the potential to totally disrupt the electricity industry’s assumptions with reliable grid-scale storage at a fraction of the cost of today’s battery technology. When deployed, LightSail’s technology would reduce the need for transmission line investment, peaker power plants, and make renewable energy practical and mainstream for the first time.”
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Re: Energy Storage- compressed air

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 20 Dec 2012, 08:01:29

Do they make any energy storage density claims, such as compared to lead acid batteries?
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Re: Energy Storage- compressed air

Unread postby pinglepongle » Thu 20 Dec 2012, 08:11:47

Dunno.
Let's ask Danny
http://bambuser.com/v/2771732
(video takes a while to load, but it's worth the wait)
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Re: Energy Storage- compressed air

Unread postby kuidaskassikaeb » Thu 20 Dec 2012, 15:46:15

I think that compressed air storage is the way to go, and there are already a few in use for large utilities.

If air can be pressurized isothermally it is as efficient as a spring, this is where everybody wants to go.

That said, I really just don't understand what they are doing. One big problem with air compressors is condensation. The heat liberated during compression would evaporate the water. Then be reabsorbed when the water condenses later in the process. So I really don't understand this.
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Re: Energy Storage- compressed air

Unread postby pinglepongle » Thu 20 Dec 2012, 18:52:29

kuidaskassikaeb wrote: So I really don't understand this.

I'll make it easier for you to understand.

"Chief Scientist" of Lightsail Danny Fong doesn't believe in the laws of physics, and CLAIMS to have found a way to avoid the enormous losses that occur in compressed air energy storage.
Ditto the problems of finding a cheap and safe tank in which to store the air.

Enter Vinod Khosla.

That sounds like a nice green idea, I'm sure that lots of greenies will like it

Tell you what, I'll give you a few dollars to make a mock up out of scrap metal.
Make it look really complicated so that it's hard to understand.
Don't let anyone have a close look because it is a SECRET!


All ready now.
PRESS RELEASE
Khosla Ventures announces that it has chucked in HEAPS of money in round D financing.



"Will you walk into my parlor?" said the Spider to the Fly,
"'Tis the prettiest little parlor that ever you did spy;
The way into my parlor is up a winding stair,
And I have many curious things to show you when you are there."
"Oh no, no," said the Fly, "to ask me is in vain;
For who goes up your winding stair can ne'er come down again."

"I'm sure you must be weary, dear, with soaring up so high;
Will you rest upon my little bed?" said the Spider to the Fly.
"There are pretty curtains drawn around, the sheets are fine and thin;
And if you like to rest awhile, I'll snugly tuck you in!"
"Oh no, no," said the little Fly, "for I've often heard it said
They never, never wake again, who sleep upon your bed!"

Said the cunning Spider to the Fly, "Dear friend, what can I do
To prove that warm affection I've always felt for you?
I have within my pantry, good store of all that's nice;
I'm sure you're very welcome - will you please take a slice?"
"Oh no, no," said the little Fly, "kind sir, that cannot be,
I've heard what's in your pantry, and I do not wish to see!"

"Sweet creature," said the Spider, "you're witty and you're wise;
How handsome are your gauzy wings, how brilliant are your eyes!
I have a little looking-glass upon my parlor shelf;
If you step in one moment, dear, you shall behold yourself."
"I thank you, gentle sir," she said, "for what you're pleased to say;
And bidding good morning now, I'll call another day."

The Spider turned him round about, and went into his den,
For well he knew the silly Fly would soon come back again;
So he wove a subtle web in a little corner sly,
And set his table ready to dine upon the Fly.
then he came out to his door again, and merrily did sing,
"Come hither, hither, pretty Fly, with the pearl and silver wing;
Your robes are green and purple, there's a crest upon your head;
Your eyes are like the diamond bright, but mine are as dull as lead."

Alas, alas! how very soon this silly little Fly,
Hearing his wily, flattering words, came slowly flitting by;
With buzzing wings she hung aloft, then near and nearer drew, -
Thinking only of her brilliant eyes, and green and purple hue;
Thinking only of her crested head - poor foolish thing! At last,
Up jumped the cunning Spider, and fiercely held her fast.
He dragged her up his winding stair, into his dismal den
Within his little parlor - but she ne'er came out again!

And now, dear little children, who may this story read,
To idle, silly, flattering words, I pray you ne'er heed;
Unto an evil counsellor close heart, and ear, and eye,
And take a lesson from this tale of the Spider and the Fly.

[smilie=XXspider.gif]
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Re: Energy Storage- compressed air

Unread postby pinglepongle » Thu 20 Dec 2012, 20:46:08

http://www.khoslaventures.com/cs_lightsail.html
LightSail: The power of iteration
When we first met with LightSail Energy, the company had three exceptional scientists and a unique plan: to create a car running on compressed air. As with many start-ups, iteration on the original concept was key to its success.
We brainstormed with the company for six months, making a number of introductions to customers for potential feedback. As LightSail iterated, we guided the company through both its technical and business development. Eventually, the founders were able to identify an exciting opportunity: to apply their compressed-air technology for grid-scale energy storage. The company is now executing on its new business plan full throttle.

THROTTLE?

Well, somebody ought to!
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Re: Energy Storage- compressed air

Unread postby sparky » Tue 25 Dec 2012, 19:45:41

.
Compressed air was used in one of the first submarine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_submarine_Plongeur

it was used to power urban trams ,conveyancing system ,internal and city wide mail
Today it is widely used in large chemical and petrochemical plant
as the favored power for safe control , it is very easy to back-up

As for economical storage , so far nobody has found a way
Air is a bit expensive
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Re: Energy Storage- compressed air

Unread postby pinglepongle » Wed 26 Dec 2012, 00:34:21

These guys have the same idea
http://www.sustainx.com/technology-isothermal-caes.htm

They are getting lots of money from investors and governments

http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/a ... le/259632/
Last edited by Tanada on Wed 26 Dec 2012, 09:44:50, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: off topic trimmed out
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Re: Energy Storage- compressed air

Unread postby sparky » Wed 26 Dec 2012, 22:09:33

.
Typical starry eyes enthusiasm , no mention of the storage side
with compressed air low energy density ,
the requirement are for massive banks of high pressure tanks to hold the air
It would work certainly ,
compressed air has a very mature tech , plenty of components are readily available
build one and see , there must be some apropriate usage somewhere
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Re: Energy Storage- compressed air

Unread postby kuidaskassikaeb » Thu 27 Dec 2012, 15:08:07

These do exist now.

1978— The first utility-scale compressed air energy storage project was the 290 megawatt Huntorf plant in Germany using a salt dome.
1991— A 110 megawatt plant with a capacity of 26 hours was built in McIntosh, Alabama (1991). The Alabama facility's $65 million cost works out to $550 per Kilowatt hour of capacity, using a 19 million square foot solution mined salt cavern to store air at up to 1100 psi. Although the compression phase is approximately 82% efficient, the expansion phase requires combustion of natural gas at one third the rate of a gas turbine producing the same amount of electricity

The problem with these is that that in compressing air some of the work is turned into heat, actually a lot, and then when expanding the work of the gas cools it reducing the available work. At very low rates or expansion or compression however, it can be 100 percent efficient. So it's actually the speed of the operation not the energy density, which is limiting. Pressures of 4000 psi are not out of the question.

What these guys seem to want to do is store the heat in the latent heat of vaporization of water. If water could remain in the gas phase till expansion, when it would condense out, it would then release its energy then, and you know, Nobel prizes all around. It just isn't obvious how you do that.
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Re: Energy Storage- compressed air

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 27 Dec 2012, 15:33:41

Compressed air storage sounds like the perfect way to store all the excess energy being produced from the ECAT "cold fusion" machines. :lol:
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Re: Energy Storage- compressed air

Unread postby pinglepongle » Thu 27 Dec 2012, 16:33:06

kuidaskassikaeb wrote:What these guys seem to want to do is
............ get money from investors and of course THE GUMMINT!

LightSail Energy of Berkeley, Calif., said in a news release Monday night it had raised

$37.3 million in its fourth round of venture capital fundraising. The group of investors includes Microsoft founder Gates, PayPal co-founder Thiel and the Nova Scotia agency Innovacorp.

The release did not reveal the valuation of the investment or say how much Innovacorp was investing. Innovacorp officials could not be reached for comment Tuesday.

In September, LightSail’s subsidiary, LightSail Canada, said it was planning for a $4.6-million pilot facility to store energy produced at a wind farm near New Glasgow. The company and the wind farm developers are planning to sink about $2 million into the storage facility and have applied to the Atlantic Innovation Fund to help with financing.

Innovacorp first made contact last year with LightSail co-founder Danielle Fong, a Dartmouth native and Dalhousie University alumna who served as a judge at Innovacorp’s CleanTech Open competition.

How much money do you think that they'll need before they PROVE that converting electrical energy via a reciprocating compressor into stored air + warm water and then reversing the process can be anywhere near efficient.

Compressed air tanks are expensive but they've got that solved. They'll MAKE THEIR OWN :-D
(just need to find that amazing winding machine)
Danielle Fong ‏@DanielleFong
If anyone knows an amazing composite winding machine tech, we want to hear about it! jobs@lightsailenergy.com

It might be wiser to assume that these disruptive technology inventions are a scam unless proven otherwise.
Surely the $40M or so they have raised so far is sufficient to build a working device and get it tested.

Oh Danny boy
The pipes, the pipes are bu-ur-sting

http://blogs-images.forbes.com/ericagie ... 602301.jpg
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Re: Energy Storage- compressed air

Unread postby kuidaskassikaeb » Tue 01 Jan 2013, 18:31:59

Geeze:

You make me feel like a troll. You started this thread, then switched positions.

The more I think about it the more reasonable it seems. If the tanks only cost 2 million, that's about the cost of one turbine, on what I presume is a large farm. That's not going to stop anybody.

Then you tell me they don't believe in the laws of physics, but don't say what ones.

I was looking at some old mechanical engineering texts, and steam engines are a 19th century technology, so the materials do exist to confine 200 atm steam at several hundred degrees. I assume that the compressed air would need to remain hot to keep the steam, steam not water, and most of the losses would be thermal through the insulation. And since both coal and nuclear plants use high pressure steam, maybe the air is a problem, but I don't see why the tanks should be such a problem.

Proving if this works or not would actually be a pretty straight forward thermodynamics calculation.
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Re: Energy Storage- compressed air

Unread postby pinglepongle » Tue 01 Jan 2013, 22:08:39

Here are the problems which so far have prevented CAES from being a practical solution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed ... gy_storage

Many fully qualified scientists and engineers have attempted to overcome those problems but none of them has been able to make it work.

1978— The first utility-scale compressed air energy storage project was the 290 megawatt Huntorf plant in Germany using a salt dome.
1991— A 110 megawatt plant with a capacity of 26 hours was built in McIntosh, Alabama (1991). The Alabama facility's $65 million cost works out to $550 per Kilowatt hour of capacity, using a 19 million square foot solution mined salt cavern to store air at up to 1100 psi. Although the compression phase is approximately 82% efficient, the expansion phase requires combustion of natural gas at one third the rate of a gas turbine producing the same amount of electricity.[12][13][14]
November 2009— The US Department of energy awards $24.9 million in matching funds for phase one of a 300 MW, $356 million Pacific Gas and Electric CAES installation utilizing a saline porous rock formation being developed near Bakersfield in Kern County, California. Goals of the project is to build and validate an advanced design.[15]
December, 2010— DOE provides $29.4 million in funding to conduct preliminary work on a 150 MW salt-based CAES project being developed by Iberdrola USA in Watkins Glen, New York. The goal is to incorporate smart grid technology to balance intermittent renewable energy sources.[15][16]
2013 (projected)— The first adiabatic CAES project, a 200 megawatt facility called ADELE, is planned for construction in Germany.
2016 (projected) - Apex has planned a CAES plant for Anderson County, Texas to go online in 2016[17]

BOONDOGGLES all of them

No problem, high school dropout and boy-wonder Danny has found a way to make it work.

"we sort of like spray in some water and stuff like that"
"It works really nice like"
"Oh My God...can you please give us some money...I need some more hosepipe and a new frock"
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Re: Energy Storage- compressed air

Unread postby kuidaskassikaeb » Thu 03 Jan 2013, 17:04:33

Dear Pinglepongle:

Is this personal with you?

Seriously, the Wikipedia article had nothing bad to say about compressed air energy, or nothing that isn't pretty well established. If there's something obviously stupid about what she, I guess she is a she, not a he, is trying to do, I can't see it. Certainly nothing that violates the laws of physics. What they are trying to do is an engineering project, and kind of a cleaver one. Maybe it's a little hyped, but that is the way it is in the start up world.
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Re: Energy Storage- compressed air

Unread postby Graeme » Tue 08 Jan 2013, 20:32:31

Into thin air: Storage salvation for green energy

One method is called pumped storage. At the Dinorwig power station in the UK, for example, water is pumped up into a reservoir on top of the Elidir Fawr mountain during periods of low demand. When energy demand spikes, the water is released down the mountain to drive turbines that feed the electricity grid. It's an extraordinary engineering achievement, housed in 16 kilometres of tunnels threaded through the mountain and capable of supplying 1300 megawatts in 12 seconds.

That power, speed and efficiency - about 80 per cent - is why pumped storage accounts for 99 per cent of the world's energy storage capacity. If every wind and solar farm had its own mountain reservoir, it might be possible to make wind energy a 24/7 resource.


Some plants have turned to air, such as a natural gas plant operated by E.ON Kraftwerke in Huntorf, Germany. Instead of using excess electrical energy to drive water up a hill, they use it to compress and store air in salt caverns about 500 metres below ground. When they need the energy once more, they release the air to drive a turbine. The problem with this method is its efficiency, which rarely exceeds 50 per cent. Pressurising air causes it to heat up, which carries away a lot of the original energy. Then, to expand the compressed air, it must be heated a second time, using up even more energy.

However, air may yet hold the key to energy storage - in liquid form. For the past two years, on a patch of land not much bigger than a basketball court in Slough, UK, a liquid air pilot storage plant has been quietly generating electricity using the excess energy from a neighbouring biomass plant. This tangle of gleaming white pipes and tanks has enough advantages over rival technologies to have been hailed as a critical part of our energy future. "This could save the UK billions," says Tim Fox, head of energy and environment at the Institution of Mechanical Engineers in London.


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Re: Energy Storage- compressed air

Unread postby Graeme » Fri 15 Feb 2013, 21:11:50

Producing Terawatts of Economical Energy Storage in the next two decades

Problem: Wind and solar energy sources simply can't produce power at all times. Energy storage is needed to store energy from the sun and wind when it's produced for use later. No economical, widespread energy storage method currently exists that would allow a substantial portion of the electrical grid's electricty to be supplied by these renewable sources.

Solution: An inexpensive, compressed air energy storage system with 60-70% efficiency could be widely scaled, hopefully enabling terawatts of grid energy storage in the next two decades.

Technology that might make it possible: Water is used to cool air temperature during compression and increase temperature during expansion, making the system more efficient.

This solution is well thought out and considers the response of the fossil fuel markets and companies. A large expansion of renewables will just cause fossil fuel prices to go down to the cost of extraction and processing. Reducing emissions down to 20% of current levels is sustainable. Fossil fuels could only be used for high value purposes,


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Re: Energy Storage- compressed air

Unread postby sparky » Sat 16 Feb 2013, 11:01:01

.
A few points to make ,
Steam is not stored anywhere , you use it or you loose it
It still is the dominant form of electrical power production
coal and nuclear power plants are big kettles with turbines

there is a fair bit of confusion between
energy source , energy transfer and energy storage

energy storage doesn't make a buck it's always a net loss
but can even out differences between the peaks in demand and production
the bigger the output and the larger the delay give a bigger increase in cost
compressed air exist already ,
the power utilities would LOVE if it was practical
variations in baseline production are a pain , and a costly one at that
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Re: Energy Storage- compressed air

Unread postby Quinny » Sat 16 Feb 2013, 12:55:10

Seems pretty obvious if you are going to store potential energy to smooth inputs a gravity based solution is going to be a hell of a lot easier. Suppose there might be some point solutions, but IMHO totally irrelevant in terms of PO.
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Re: Energy Storage- compressed air

Unread postby dissident » Sat 16 Feb 2013, 13:06:51

Quinny wrote:Seems pretty obvious if you are going to store potential energy to smooth inputs a gravity based solution is going to be a hell of a lot easier. Suppose there might be some point solutions, but IMHO totally irrelevant in terms of PO.


That's right, storing heat which is what compressed air is doing, is a non-starter. Wind power should be used to pump water into reservoirs and large natural ones. Building water towers in cities is expensive and burns oil. The losses are in the efficiency of the electric motors driving the pumps and the generators producing hydro power. These losses are much smaller than for any chemical or compressed air storage "solution" offered so far.
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