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PeakOil is You

CO2 + H2O + Energy = synthetic fuel

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Reprocessing vehicle exhausts

Unread postby bentstrider » Mon 25 Oct 2004, 06:04:48

I always thought of the law of thermodynamics and the part where "energy cannot be create, nor destroyed. But transferred."
In essence, oil's not energy, just a form of fuel.
Anywho, Iwas wondering what people would think about a device on a vehicle that reprocesses the exhaust back into gasoline.
I've been starting to think in terms of when something gets burned, it's not really gone, it's structure just got broken apart.
I'll add more along the lines. :?
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Unread postby Devil » Mon 25 Oct 2004, 08:55:25

[rant]
Please don't bother adding any more to your haverings, because they're stark-staring bonkers. Let us suppose that, chemically, it were possible (which it isn't, at least conveniently). Just please tell me how you are going to replace the energy you have used to drive the car, wasted as heat from the radiator, brake disks etc., lost in flexing the tyres and in friction. Where is that energy going to come from?

SLT
(Second Law of Thermodynamics)

Will someone please tell me if all these idiots like Bentstrider are not just posting their lunacies to provoke me from breaking my silence? Why the hell don't they just stay in their burrows?
[/rant]

Moderator: please cut and paste this rant on all similar messages proposing genial ideas that defy science.
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Energy is neither created nor destroyed.

Unread postby JoeW » Mon 25 Oct 2004, 12:16:54

It has been observed that energy is neither created, nor destroyed. However, the concept that we are heading for an "energy crisis" is misleading. We are headed for an energy storage crisis.
As Devil indicated, the chemical reaction involved in gasoline combustion results in a product of other chemicals, plus energy. This would look like:
Gasoline + Oxygen => Energy + Polluting Chemicals.
If reversible, then you should be able to take those product chemicals, and by adding enough energy (by heating it?), you would get gasoline and oxygen, or at the very least, you would get hydrocarbons and oxygen.
The problem is, as Devil indicated, even if it were scientifically possible (I don't think so, but I would like to see someone post the actual chemical equations), you have to get that energy from somewhere. If you could do this with nuclear-generated electricity, don't you think someone would have done it already, and made a fortune doing it?
Of course they would.
You are right that the energy is still there, but it's been converted from energy stored in hydrocarbon molecules to the kinetic energy of the car and its internal engine components, the heat given off by the reaction. Some of the stored energy is converted to kinetic energy (crank pulley) and then converted once again to electricity (alternator), which is then converted back to kinetic energy (windshield wipers, stereo speakers), or converted to heat and light (headlights, instrument panel). Mankind has mastered the art of converting energy! It is storing energy that needs to be improved.
Imagine if they made a DC battery that could power your car for a whole year. Now that would be an energy storage breakthrough. You could set up shop next to a nuclear power station and charge batteries for transportation needs all day long.
But that's a miracle that has yet to happen, and even if it did, it's not as good as getting pre-stored energy right out of the ground.

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Unread postby bentstrider » Mon 25 Oct 2004, 13:35:28

Hey, just chill for a hot minute devil.
All I was doing was stating something off the top of my head.
I never said I knew anything about chemistry in the first place.
This is the type of shit that always goes down with people like you.
Someone comes up with something far-fetched, and you would be the first person to draw a guage(shotgun) in the room.
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Unread postby Devil » Tue 26 Oct 2004, 03:29:04

bentstrider wrote:Hey, just chill for a hot minute devil.
All I was doing was stating something off the top of my head.
I never said I knew anything about chemistry in the first place.
This is the type of shit that always goes down with people like you.
Someone comes up with something far-fetched, and you would be the first person to draw a guage(shotgun) in the room.


Think before stating. You don't need to be an Einstein to work out that you have to replace the energy as well as produce the chemicals, and that's physics, not chemistry. Here, in Hell, it's hot, as you are sure to find out in due course, so chilling out is not possible. I'm waiting for someone to suggest using the heat from my furnaces, fuelled by brimstone, to fix the fuel problems but I'll say that this won't work, either. And we don't have or need shotguns in Hell. I usually just laugh at far-fetched hypotheses, but your's was so stupidly crass that it just went over the top.

Alexander Pope expressed it well, nearly 300 years ago:
A little learning is a dangerous thing;
Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring:
There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,
And drinking largely sobers us again.
(An Essay on Criticism)
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Unread postby bentstrider » Wed 27 Oct 2004, 06:12:12

I heard from a priest that "hell", was actually a form of control.
Hell had a Hebrew name.
The Hebrew word for Hell was actually the name of canyone they burned criminals in near Jerusalem, during biblical days.
And if we really wanted to scrap this out, I would give you my direct address, but you would be a pussy instead and bill credit cards to it instead.
Chemistry/Physics.
Hey, schools a hard thing for to me grasp, but I'll pick it up in due time.
And what you call hell, is probably just an 9x9 room with heater fans and no windows open, BUB.
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Unread postby Devil » Wed 27 Oct 2004, 08:28:15

Hee hee! You believe what priests say? They are all controlled by me! :)

Ge Hinnom (the NT Gehenna) is as you say, except that a) it is a place of temporary purification in its figurative sense and b) was a place of sacrifice of innocent children to Menoch, not of execution of criminals. The Israelites mad it a rubbish dump to stop the practice. The real Hell is of Nordic origin, not Judeo-Christian.
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Unread postby bentstrider » Wed 27 Oct 2004, 16:05:19

You're one dedicated motherfvcker to this argument.
So, far you're the only one who has shown any concern for my rant.
Albeit, negative concern, but concern nonetheless.
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Unread postby rerere » Wed 27 Oct 2004, 18:08:48

bentstrider wrote:You're one dedicated motherfvcker to this argument.
So, far you're the only one who has shown any concern for my rant.
Albeit, negative concern, but concern nonetheless.


Then let me add a negative note.


The only reason you think the energy to re-make the bonds is trivial is because you were not around when 98 tons of old plant/animal material was sequestered underground to eventually end up with 1 gallon of gas.

98 tons of material. Grown because sunlight hit the earth. Years ago. Just to make 1 gallon of gas.

Simplist hydrocarbon - Methanol. You *CAN* make that by:
Splitting Water to get Hydrogen.
Compressing and cooling Air to get CO2
Then combining CO2 and Hydrogen under pressure + heat to get water and Methanol.
THEN use heat to distill the Methanol from the Water.

Your proposal is to make LONGER chains of C and H? From Air and Water?

If mankind has that kind of energy 'lying about' - "Peak Oil" (aka peak CHEAP energy) would be a non-problem.


Feel better now?
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Unread postby bentstrider » Wed 27 Oct 2004, 20:07:47

Well, since I received your response, yes.
I was getting way too frustrated by that guy who claims to be a "Norwegian devil".
Vikings were always arrogant anyway.
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Theoretically all our fuel could be created by solar power?

Unread postby Clouseau2 » Thu 14 Apr 2005, 11:49:17

Let's say someone invents a solar panel gizmo that takes solar energy, water and atmospheric CO2 and creates oil/diesel fuel/etc. with it. And let's say it is 50% efficient. Since plants do something similar already, this is not outside the realm of possibility.

To replace the 20m barrels of oil, how much surface area would we have to cover?

1 barrel of oil == 1705 kWH equivalent
Assume 600 Watts/sq meter of solar energy for 12 hours a day.

We need 20M * 1705 kWH * 2 (50 %efficient) = 68.2 Billion kWH

Divide that by 12 and then .6 (600 Watt/sq meter) = 9.472 Billion sq meters

Which is 9,472 square kilometers or a 97 km x 97 km square.

That doesn't seem totally impossible.

Also, we don't actually need to consume 20M barrels of oil a day, I'll bet we could easily maintain the current standard of living on half that in the USA.
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Unread postby clv101 » Thu 14 Apr 2005, 11:52:28

The system we are currently operating is based on exponential material growth. Any 'solution' must remove the exponential material growth to be called a solution.
"Everything is proceeding as I have foreseen." The Emperor (Return of the Jedi)
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Unread postby Ludi » Thu 14 Apr 2005, 11:57:12

Theoretically all our fuel could be created by solar power? Yes, in the form of trees and other plants. But probably not for 6.5 billion people.
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Unread postby Wildwell » Thu 14 Apr 2005, 12:23:58

In very simple terms, yes – but there’s bigger issues afoot. I did some quick 'back of the envelope' calculations and yes you could provide all your domestic and industrial supply from solar and wind and hydro, especially using mini turbines and some of the new nano printed solar technology if it’s localised and in very sunny areas of the world. Running hydrogen buses and electric and biodeisel rail engines is also possible with a limited amount of bio trucks.

Big question mark over mass motoring and airlines in their current form IMHO. But all is not lost, smaller short distance battery cars, scooters and in rural areas horses should provide the answer for some people.

People are right to point out this couldn’t be done for 6.5 billion people, but then 75% of people now do not have easy or any access to a telephone.
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Unread postby Andy » Thu 14 Apr 2005, 12:48:11

Solar in its various forms can provide all our needs with one caveat. WE ABANDON GROWTH and scale down. If we don't ABANDON GROWTH, there is no hope for humanity surviving. Growth will overwhelm any technology (Nuclear, solar, fossil, geothermal etc.) Hence, our number one problem is to scale down our economy and reduce our population over time.

I have always thought that renewables/efficiency/scale down is the path we should take. Between wind, solar thermal, solar photovoltaic, solar photochemical, geothermal, small hydro, ocean thermal, tidal, wave, biamass, we should be O.K with some having the attributes of relatively stable supply (biomass, hydro, OTEC, solar photochemical and a few solar thermal options)
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Unread postby aahala » Thu 14 Apr 2005, 13:17:01

Yes, we would have to stop the growth.

Yes, I agree in theory solar could produce all the energy we're now using.
However implausible, US useage could be replaced solely by wind power
and that's much more possible than solar. . .

Now let's get real. At the end of last year, the annual worldwide solar cell
production capacity was roughly 1,000M. The one-hundredth largest electrical power plant in the US was rated at 1,699M, which even can
operate while the sun don't shine. :razz:

So you're going to have to add a truckload of zeros to get there.
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Unread postby Nairb » Thu 14 Apr 2005, 13:28:45

We wont stop our growth because reproduction at a massive rate is embedded into our genetics! It is because of that, that we have survived so long a species. Without these genetics we would feel no need to reproduce.

Lets say there are two villages, one of which has people who feel the need to reproduce expodentially, the other dosn't. they both start out with 200 people. You see obviosly where I am going with this! The people who feel the need to reproduce at a massive rate will either kill the other village or displace them. We are, as a race, are the remains of a scenario similar to this.

We cannot trust people to make babies at a lesser rate, because they dont care what we think. We can only make laws that limit the number of babies a couple can produce (2 being okay, 1 preferable). This is seen as a severe limit on personal freedom. Because our system is based on the popular support of this president, the candidate that gets in the way of their genetic predespositions will lose, obviosly.

My prediction is that continued population growth in this sector of the world is inevidable.
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Unread postby Bandidoz » Thu 14 Apr 2005, 14:03:51

What's EROEI on solar PV at present? Last I heard it was little more than 1, so all they essentially do is behave like batteries. If it takes 1TJ to construct the solar generation that produces 1TJ over its lifetime then we haven't really got anywhere.......
The Olduvai Theory is thinkable http://www.dieoff.com/page224.pdf
Easter Island - a warning from history : http://www.dieoff.org/page145.htm
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Unread postby clv101 » Thu 14 Apr 2005, 14:16:36

Nairb wrote:We wont stop our growth because reproduction at a massive rate is embedded into our genetics! It is because of that, that we have survived so long a species. Without these genetics we would feel no need to reproduce.
Humans have not "survived so long a species". We are one of the most recent species on the planet. Plenty of other species have survived with steady population sizes for 1000 times longer than humans have. The problem is behavioural not genetic.
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Unread postby Andy » Thu 14 Apr 2005, 14:38:39

My prediction is that continued population growth in this sector of the world is inevidable.


Unfortunately for humans, you are correct. Hence we are eventually doomed to calamity. We can only learn the hard way.
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