[eclipse]

KiteGen



The Kite Generator is a new wind-power concept under development in Italy.

It has been estimated to produce electricity 30 to 50 times cheaper than normal European electricity costs!

The KITE WIND GENERATOR can be envisioned as a giant merry-go-round, solidly anchored to the ground. Its nucleus consists of a central structure, tall enough to support the ‘arms’ by means of a tensostructure. This ‘carousel’ is put into motion by the wind itself, that drags the kites out from their funnels within the arms, and into the sky. The rotating central structure contains the automatic winches that release the pairs of cables which guide the kites. (The cables’ length can exceed a thousand metres).

As the kites circle in the air, the vertical rotating axis of the structure activates large scale alternators, that have been geared down to receive the force exerted on them. At its full capacity the flight of the entire kite array is guided, so as to turn the carousel at the desired speed. An aeolic power plant conceived in this fashion is capable of producing the energy equivalent to a nuclear power plant, while exploiting an area of few square kilometres, without occupying exclusively it. (The majority of this area can still be used for agriculture, or navigation in the case of an offshore installation.)

Kite Generator home page

Wired magazine!

Bring on the trolley buses, electrify rail, because as oil phases out, electricity is getting cheaper people!

[sch_peakoiler]

interesting concept. However, one Gigawatt sound suspicious, this is an equivalent of 400 big wind power towers. Anyway, still there is little information available in english on the website. I would prefer to read the english version of FAQ.

[eclipse]

Download their English PDF, it's cool because they get peak oil!

The first paragraph talks about half the human race starving if we don't come up with a new energy source very quickly. Now, I'm not in the dieoff club — I respect it but I'm more of a "Great Depression" kind of guy. Yet it is great to see this kind of strong language in a renewable energy application to the EU government! It conveys a sense of urgency.

[IslandCrow]

I like the central tower reflecting the architecture of the Colossium.

I looked at their pages and noticed that this is a very new concept and they think they will need another five years to get a prototype working.

The work needed to demonstrate the validity of the hypothesis and construct the actual prototypes is articulated in phases for a length of five years.

Five years for prototypes...time then to raise funds and to build more..we are looking at 2012 and beyond before this becomes useful.

As I think it was Toe_cutter who said something about the important thing is whether the technology is developed or is being developed. Very big difference.

[garyp]

While I'm a fan of using kites for power generation (stronger winds at altitudes, KISS etc.) this looks very questionable.

For a start the efficiency of that design looks terrible, with maybe only 1 in 10 kites producing power at any one time. In addition, the significant structure is costly and bulky for no purpose other than to transfer forces.

Looks like the EU framework project have been wasting money again.

[Madpaddy]

I'ld love to think this could work but I keep seeing the kites getting tangled and the whole array crashing to the ground with a big Gordion knot in the centre.

[eclipse]

That's why the arms of the central turbine are so long, and why the kites each have their own personal sensors and guidance systems. These beasts are fairly big, with computer controlled guidance systems.

Apparently they can move out of the way of planes, helicopters, even birds. PDF said there's some radar system in place as well.

So if they can manage all that, I think they'll have the distance sorted so they don't get tangled. I read somewhere they already have 40% of their funding for a smaller test model. The bigger ones could beat a few nukes! And under the carousel "arms", we let cows graze, grow crops, whatever.

[Last_Laff]

I have to admit, this is one cool looking way of generating electricty, but realistically, its a pipedream concept.

[Nano]

Surely they should have the funding to do a decent structural analysis of this thing, which they haven't done judging from the artists impression.

Those spindly, inefficient arms are *not* going to be transmitting the forces needed for 1 [GW]. And even if they are, then the ridiculous little support lines running over the top of them would be unnecessary. On top of that: the kites tugging at the ends of those poles would make tension support on the *underside* much more usefull. These things, to a potential investor looking for signs of technical prowess, are sure to be a let down. If they even like the idea they'll build it without consulting you!

And I still haven't seen any decent procedure for getting the kites into the air. I'm thinking about using a hot air baloon to bring the kites into position initially.

But still it's a brilliant concept. You don't even need to build a full prototype at all. Just getting a single kitestring up and staying in the air 24/7 with fully adjustable dynamic tension control and sporting a failsafe, non-destructive retraction system would clinch it for me, if I had the money to invest...

So get cracking guys (and gals?) You've had this kitegen idea in the air for quite some time now. If necessary you can always open a can of undergraduate mechanical engineers to sort out the structural details for few bucks. Contact me if you need some help in arranging that, because I'd like to see where it goes once you have an actual working design rather than something from Stickmen-R-Us.

[oilfreeandhappy]

I think it's an interesting concept, with some potential. As I've said before, we need to be pursuing multiple alternatives.

I think the problems won't be generating electricity, although GWatt levels are questionable at this stage, but will be dealing with the weather extremes.

[eclipse]

If it really is 50 times cheaper, doesn't that then give the opportunity for hydrogen backup or other energy storage concepts?

[The_Toecutter]

Maybe.

I don't know how viable fuel cells are for large scale power applications today, but I do know that they aren't viable for small scale apps like home systems, automobiles, and the like due to expense(evenn if mass produced), and due to short membrane life(fails within up to 2,000 hours of operation, but usually around 1,000-1,500 hours).

I'll have to check into that.


Energy storage on such a large scale is neither cheap nor easy. The Vanadium REDOX battery is a start though. Pumped water storage is limited in availability and applications.

[eclipse]

Yeah, I hear you. I wish I could see the executive summary for dummies from the CSIRO or something. In Australia we could nationalise and just BUILD the Solar Chimney, HDR Geothermal and KiteGen to see which worked most effectively in what contexts... and regions.

At least, that's what I would if I ruled the world.
It would be nice if a few percent of military spending were diverted into these projects, and then they'd just get done.

I love the idea of KiteGen, but I really hope it doesn't get snowballed for years because of a cautious stockmarket the way the Solar Chimney in Oz has.

[J-Rod]

I guess everyone hates my thread.

http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic24280.html

[eclipse]

Sorry, I didn't see it there.

Nano wrote:

Yeah, I also love this idea still after I first saw it a year ago. It really is a great idea and I hope they find sponsors to build a life size one. But there are critical factors that cannot be solved IMO.

What happens when (not if) one or more of the kite strings comes down and isn't realed in quickly enough. Who's going to pick it up and what will that do for the price/MWh?

How are the strings brought to their operating height in the first place? I can imagine a way to do it but it seems time consuming and frought with risk (=costly).

How is the central wheel to be made? The artists impression in the website seems much too weak and flimsy considering the considerable dynamic and static forces that will be tugging at each spoke.

Anyway: asuming the above is solved (not likely) perhaps they should build a small-scale prototype with each of the kitestrings supported by a helium baloon. That should enable trouble-free operation despite the small size for as long as the helium is in de balloons and then you can certainly do some real-life testing of the control software and main structure. I think you could get a good idea of what's possible using a 20[m] drive wheel supported on a guide rail and using kite strings of 50[m] if you can find a suitable open space with a uniform, gentle breeze.

If I had the money I'd sponsor such a venture in no time but since I haven't got a cent to scratch my ass with (as we say in Holland) I guess not.

They've already tested their kite release systems off the back of a truck (literally) and have guidance systems on each kite. These are big, industrial strength kites made from the lightest, strongest materials.

[davep]

Just getting a single kitestring up and staying in the air 24/7 with fully adjustable dynamic tension control and sporting a failsafe, non-destructive retraction system would clinch it for me, if I had the money to invest...

That's been the onus of their efforts so far, see http://sequoiaonline.com/blogs/pdf/mobilegen_scheda.pdf

Apparently the mobilegen tests their electronic wizardry (which is sequoia's forte) and does create power. I don't think they've got the full-on retraction system yet though.

[eclipse]

Still, if it's even 20 times cheaper surely there's money left over to invest in a video and computer system that checks on the performance?

If the worst came to the worst, surely the company could pay a local farmer to go out and fly a kites if it comes down. (IF they really can't automate it.) I'd love to see how that would work... would the whole plant pause while he jiggled the kite up, or would there be a central stairwell that let him climb up to the rotating arms? Maybe there's a pulley system that lets him launch it from the central tower and then it pulleys back out to the end of the arm? They seemed to imply the kites could be moved out the way of aircraft, so maybe that's how it works? I can't tell.

"Let's go fly a kite, up to the highest height,
oh let's go, fly a kite!"

Sorry, couldn't resist... I'm just recovering from the kids being home during the Australian spring holidays, and my 3.5 year old girl likes Mary Poppins. (Shudders.)

[Nano]

Just saw on TV there's a Dutch ex-astronaut who wants to power ocean steamers with kite's. He says the whole design is ready to rumble, and all it needs is (lots of) money.

Does it all boil down to the old lie: "The technology is there so there's no need to worry". Except that this touted 'technology' is always a gazilion times more expensive than it's fossil fuel equivalent every time. Same with the kitegen. I seriously doubt it's really cheaper (in $$$$, not in 'emergy' or 'lifecylce costs' or other PC correct crap like that) than an equivalent coal fired plant. That just seems rediculous even to suggest. But fine: build me a commercial Kitegen and we'll see how expensive it turns out to be *in the real world*.

[eclipse]

Hi Nano,

exactly. I'm a bit of an optimist, and think we're only headed for a Greater Depression (I'm one of those annoying eco-city viridian green dreamers.) But hey, I agree that we need to be BUILDING these things and testing, experiencing, and living with them. I go on and on about retrofitted suburban villages running on renewable energy built by renewable materials... but it would be nice to SEE them!

Other than a few local villages in Germany that have set up their own local energy co-ops, we cannot point to that many energy independent regions. (And others have pointed out that those same villages probably rely on fossil fuel fertilizers, etc brought in from the outside world.)

I love KiteGen, Solar Chimney's, etc. But it would be great to see them under construction and actually pumping this power into the grid!

[The_Toecutter]

Does it all boil down to the old lie: "The technology is there so there's no need to worry". Except that this touted 'technology' is always a gazilion times more expensive than it's fossil fuel equivalent every time.

Has it ever occured to you as to why these alternatives are more expensive to conventional sources?

Production volume.