THE Wind Power Thread pt 2 (merged)

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THE Wind Power Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Bleep » Sat 09 Sep 2006, 07:46:58

Would somebody please jack their electric bills up by at least 33%? They need a big slap in the face that will end their associating between "wind farms" and "controversy".
Firm files for wind farm (LINK to article)
By REBECCA T. DICKSON, Union Leader Correspondent, Friday Sep 8, 2006:
The company proposing a controversial wind farm on Lempster Mountain has filed its application with the state Site Evaluation Committee.

The action marks the first step in the evaluation process for what could be the first major source of wind power in New Hampshire and one of the first new wind power sources in New England in more than decade.

In July, the SEC said it would review the plan, simultaneously rejecting the developer's request for a speedy review. The state's involvement will add paperwork and delays to the start of construction, which developer Community Energy Inc. fears may cause it to miss up to $15 million in federal tax credits.

The state committee unanimously voted to oversee the project after residents and town officials petitioned it to do so.
Great, all the grass roots support is so out-of-touch with Peak Oil it's pathetic.

My favorite opening statement to a newbie is: Everybody's heard of Global Warming but have you heard of Peak Oil? It immediately creates the correct associations that enable them to feel the size and scope of the issue.

Going back to the article I see this unbelievable statement:
The SEC examines energy projects, but has never reviewed a renewable energy project before. Typically, it oversees larger-scale power facilities, such as the Seabrook nuclear power plant. This also marks the first time the petition process has been used to trigger such a review.
Never underestimate the awesome power of lemmings going over a cliff.
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Ski Resorts Convert to Wind Power for Electricity

Unread postby Bleep » Fri 15 Sep 2006, 07:22:32

Shawnee Peak the Latest Resort to Turn to Wind Power (link)
Bridgton, ME - It seems that these announcements are coming once a week these days. Maine's Shawnee Peak is the latest U.S. ski resort to choose wind to power its electricity needs this winter, joining Aspen/Snowmass and Vail Resorts in Colorado, Crystal Mountain in Michigan, Mt. Ashland in Oregon, and Sugar Bowl in California. Shawnee Peak is the first Maine ski and snowboard area to take the leap into environmental consciousness via 100% wind power.
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Re: Ski Resorts Convert to Wind Power for Electricity

Unread postby NeoPeasant » Fri 15 Sep 2006, 09:32:59

Bleep wrote:
Shawnee Peak the Latest Resort to Turn to Wind Power (link)
Bridgton, ME - It seems that these announcements are coming once a week these days. Maine's Shawnee Peak is the latest U.S. ski resort to choose wind to power its electricity needs this winter, joining Aspen/Snowmass and Vail Resorts in Colorado, Crystal Mountain in Michigan, Mt. Ashland in Oregon, and Sugar Bowl in California. Shawnee Peak is the first Maine ski and snowboard area to take the leap into environmental consciousness via 100% wind power.

If they really wanted to take a leap into environmental conciousness, they would stop devastating alpine environments and watersheds so that the idle rich can slide down the sides of mountains on sticks.
A little environmental greewashing is not going to save an industry that is totally dependent on the discretionary income of an affluent society and continuing cheap air travel.
The battle to preserve our lifestyle has already been lost. The battle to preserve our lives is just beginning.
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Iberdrola's First US Wind Power Project

Unread postby Bleep » Sun 01 Oct 2006, 17:30:03

PPL Corp. to buy output from Pennsylvania wind farm (link)

Sept. 29 -- PPL Corp. has agreed to buy the output from Community Energy Inc.´s 26-megawatt planned wind farm in Mahoney City, Pa.

Under the 20-year purchase agreement, the utility will receive enough electricity to annually power 20,000 homes. The Locust Ridge wind farm is the first U.S. project by Community Energy´s parent company, Iberdrola, which has 4,004 megawatts of installed renewable energy capacity worldwide.

The Locust Ridge project, which will consist of 13 wind turbines, each standing nearly 400 feet tall, is expected to be on line during the first quarter of 2007. Its output will save more than 74 million pounds of carbon dioxide emissions per year, the equivalent of removing 5,000 cars from the road.
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Re: Iberdrola's First US Wind Power Project

Unread postby paleoman » Tue 03 Oct 2006, 20:13:39

Why don't they ever tell you how much co2 is released during the construction phase? The manufacture of each turbine releases large amounts of co2, but the biggie is the massive amount of concrete needed for the foundation of each turbine, and concrete production is one of the worst co2 emitters. Not to mention the use of fuel for shipment and transport of equipment and site maintainence. I read some numbers somewhere and the calculations showed that it will take most turbines about 25+ years to offset the amount of co2 that it required to construct that one tower. So the wind industry really should stop using co2 emissions as a selling point. It should go more like this "Completely inefficient, intermittant, bird killing, heavily subsidized, eyesore, pointless energy source"
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Re: Iberdrola's First US Wind Power Project

Unread postby Denny » Tue 03 Oct 2006, 20:39:25

paleoman wrote:Why don't they ever tell you how much co2 is released during the construction phase? The manufacture of each turbine releases large amounts of co2, but the biggie is the massive amount of concrete needed for the foundation of each turbine, and concrete production is one of the worst co2 emitters. Not to mention the use of fuel for shipment and transport of equipment and site maintainence.


Well, everything is a two sided question. I guess you might say the real villain in this piece is people's demand for electric power. Given that electricity must be produced, you still need turbines for that, whether they are driven by steam or by wind. Same with the transport issue. And, at least you don't have to build chimneys with wind power!
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Re: Iberdrola's First US Wind Power Project

Unread postby yesplease » Tue 03 Oct 2006, 22:24:09

A 25+ year offset is way, way high. The best way to compute the offset is to take the amount of energy neede to produce the renewable energy generator, and the time it takes for the generator to make that much energy. Solar panels are the worst, and as of the late nineties it took about a decade to recoup the energy invested, after that all energy generated resulted in a net gain. I'm guessing wind turbines pay back the initial energy investment in a much shorter timeframe.
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Re: Iberdrola's First US Wind Power Project

Unread postby paleoman » Tue 03 Oct 2006, 23:12:24

yesplease I was referring to the amount of time it takes to repay the co2 emmision debt each turbine creates not the energy investment. Yes, I have read the return on energy is in months, not years.
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Re: Iberdrola's First US Wind Power Project

Unread postby azreal60 » Tue 03 Oct 2006, 23:41:51

So tell me, what is the Co2 released for each of those turbines. I'll take a ballpark figure. Then tell me the co2 released for a comparable amount of any other way to produce electric power. Those are figures I'd like to see before I say wind power is what the previous poster indicated it was.
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Re: Iberdrola's First US Wind Power Project

Unread postby yesplease » Wed 04 Oct 2006, 01:38:51

According to this analysis of a few wind projects in the US, the average amount of carbon dioxide needed for construction per gwh is about 1,000,000 tons. On average about 10 tons of carbon dioxide are emitted per gwh for wind, and for coal the range is supposedly 751 - 964 tons per gwh. So if we build a gwh of wind electricity, the time before we use less carbon dioxide per gwh compared to coal seems to be at most, ~1350 hours, or about two months. Assuming we are not including the carbon dioxide needed to construct the coal plant.
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Re: Iberdrola's First US Wind Power Project

Unread postby Bleep » Wed 04 Oct 2006, 19:50:25

paleoman wrote:Why don't they ever tell you how much co2 is released during the construction phase?
If they didn't construct this they would have constructed something else that was as bad to make.
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Re: Iberdrola's First US Wind Power Project

Unread postby paleoman » Thu 05 Oct 2006, 17:17:30

This is from a paper I wrote, it should answer in detail the above questions.

Environmental Factors: CO2 Emissions
The biggest selling point for wind energy is the claim that it will help reduce or offset CO2 emissions; and that it can do this in a way that is harmless to the environment. This is what the wind industry wants you to believe but it is far from the truth. According to the AWEA, American Wind Energy Association
Based on the U.S. average fuel mix, approximately 1.5 pounds of CO2 is emitted for every kWh generated. This means that an average wind turbine prevents the emission of 2 million kWh x 1.5 pounds CO2/kWh = 3 million pounds of CO2 = 1500 tons of CO2 each year. According to Our Ecological Footprint, (Wackemagel & Rees, 1996), a forest absorbs approximately 3 tons of CO2 per acre of trees per year. Thus, a single 750kW wind turbine prevents as much carbon dioxide from being emitted each year as could be absorbed by 500 acres of forest. And the roughly 3 billion kWh that are produced each year by California's wind power plants displace CO2 emissions of 4.5 billion pounds (2.25 million tons), or as much as could be absorbed by a forest covering more than 1100 square miles. 4
Theoretically these numbers are correct but, unfortunately, they do not hold up in the real world. An electrical power grid works on a supply and demand basis. There are no storage capabilities due to the technological limitations of storing such vast amounts of electricity. The grid must have the ability to compensate for peak loads. Wind power cannot be counted on as part of the systems reserve capacity. It only produces when the wind is blowing not necessarily when there is peak demand on the grid.
A major problem is that wind generation is strongest at night and during the winter months when electricity demands tend to be lowest. Every megawatt of wind power capacity must be backed up by an equal amount of conventional power.
A numerical example will make this clearer. Let’s say we have a hypothetical country which has 100,000 MW of installed capacity. Because of Gov’t regulations and pressure from environmentalists this country decides to install several wind generating facilities. They use 1.5 MW GE turbines and install 5,000 turbines in various locations; theoretically supplying 7,500 MW of supplemental power to the grid (this number is closer to 1,875 using the 20 to 30% capacity factor but we will say 7,500 for the sake of simplicity).
It would now seem that this country would only need 92,500 MW of conventional power to supply the grid, and may even be able to shut down a conventional power plant. This would theoretically reduce emissions by 15 million tons (4 million kWh x 1.5 CO2/kWh=6 million pounds of CO2=3000 tons of CO2 x 5000 turbines=15 million tons). This number, if true, would certainly make the case for wind energy stronger. The startling fact is that it would not even reduce emissions by one ton of CO2 let alone 15 million tons. The reason is quite simple and one that proponents of wind energy like to overlook.
The grid, at all times, must have the ability to produce 100,000 MW of power at a moment’s notice to compensate for peak load. As stated earlier wind power cannot be counted on as baseload power but only as reserve capacity. If this country decided to shut down one of their conventional power plants they would still have the 100,000 MW required but 7,500 of that would be from wind power, which we know is intermittent and unreliable. If the demand reaches 100,000 MW at any given time we cannot count on the wind power being available at that time. Therefore, there would be a deficit of 7500 MW on the grid, resulting in rolling blackouts and loss of power to thousands of homes.
There is no reduction in CO2 because the conventional power plants must remain in state called spinning reserve mode. The conventional power plants cannot be shut down and turned back on at short notice. Spinning reserve mode means that the plant is still burning fossil-fuel but is not producing electricity. In fact, by going in and out of spinning reserve mode the conventional plants run at less than optimum efficiency, this in turn, causes a larger amount of CO2 to be released from each plant that is operating in this manner. These plants run at peak efficiency when they are continuously generating electricity and not being switched on and off depending on whether the wind is blowing. The above example is very simplistic and easy to understand, yet wind advocates seem to ignore the facts. The hard truth is that wind farms do not reduce the amount of CO2, and it is very likely they are causing an increase in emissions.
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Re: Iberdrola's First US Wind Power Project

Unread postby paleoman » Thu 05 Oct 2006, 17:25:40

In fact if anyone wants to read the whole paper I would glady e-mail to you. It is a good read for anyone who is unfamiliar with the wind energy industry.
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Wind Power In North America from Italy

Unread postby Bleep » Fri 05 Jan 2007, 10:12:19

It's not just from Spain's Iberdrola now that is investing in US and Candian wind power now.
Italy's Enel to build wind farms in Kansas and Newfoundland (link)
The Associated Press
January 5, 2007

Enel SpA, Italy's largest utility, said Friday it will build two wind farms in the United States and Canada with a combined capacity of 277 megawatts as part of a €4 billion (US$5.2 billion) investment in renewable energy.

...skip...

The first phase of the Smoky Hills project, representing 100.8 megawatts of capacity, is scheduled to be completed by the end of 2007, Enel said.
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Re: Wind Power In North America from Italy

Unread postby jbeckton » Fri 05 Jan 2007, 11:37:40

Thats not much power, wind energy will never be a significant source.
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Re: Wind Power In North America from Italy

Unread postby dday » Fri 05 Jan 2007, 12:19:46

Thats not much power, wind energy will never be a significant source.

Here in Denmark it is 20 % of our electrical energy supply annualised, ther have been quite a few days this fall and winter where it has been 50 %.

I don't know what you mean by significant, but in my vocabulary 20% is significant.

The goverment here is planning to take it to 50 % by merely replacing older windmills with newer ones that are bigger and more efficient. This will also reduce the amount of windmills that we dot the countryside.
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Re: Wind Power In North America from Italy

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Fri 05 Jan 2007, 12:24:45

dday wrote:Thats not much power, wind energy will never be a significant source.

Here in Denmark it is 20 % of our electrical energy supply annualised, ther have been quite a few days this fall and winter where it has been 50 %.

I don't know what you mean by significant, but in my vocabulary 20% is significant.

The goverment here is planning to take it to 50 % by merely replacing older windmills with newer ones that are bigger and more efficient. This will also reduce the amount of windmills that we dot the countryside.


Well, Denmark is a coastal nation placed in favourable geographic location to rely on wind power this much.
Not many countries are in that position.
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Re: Wind Power In North America from Italy

Unread postby jbeckton » Fri 05 Jan 2007, 12:36:14

By insignificant I mean 0.1% of US power comes from wind turbines.

Denmark is a relativly small country with very favorable conditions for wind generation, however you must realize that power cannot be stored, it must be activly produced when its needed. This means at the precise times durring the day when a peak load is demanded, you better hope its windy if you go to 50% wind power. Oh yeah, and not too windy because that isn't good for the turbine.

Also many ideal locations for wind turbines are in the path of bird migration(where its windy). So you see that there are several problems with wind. If projections are accurate and the power needed continues to clime at current rates you will need an unbelievable number of wind turbines to sustain that.

A source of energy that is uncontrolable can never be a primary source of generation with much reliability.

Wind energy will always be a supplemental source.
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Re: Wind Power In North America from Italy

Unread postby aahala » Fri 05 Jan 2007, 12:57:43

It's about as easy to exaggerate as to belittle claims about the
future of wind power. It is what it is.

It's not a perfect solution nor a complete solution to future
electrical needs. But it is something, whether you call it
significant or insignificant

Germany and Spain are producing about 5% of their electricity now from wind and the US figure is about .6%.
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Re: Wind Power In North America from Italy

Unread postby jbeckton » Fri 05 Jan 2007, 13:18:20

Its wasting valuable time and money that could be spent exploring other options that could play a significant role.
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