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PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

THE Limits to Growth Thread

Discuss research and forecasts regarding hydrocarbon depletion.

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Unread postby Tyler_JC » Mon 14 Feb 2005, 21:37:32

Go ahead, try to refute any of my points.
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Unread postby jato » Tue 15 Feb 2005, 07:15:12

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Unread postby Tyler_JC » Tue 15 Feb 2005, 16:47:08

Dead people, especially Westerners, are filled with pesticides, radioactive waste, preservatives, and food coloring. Many people no longer have a mid life crisis, they have a half-life. TV people are mostly made of plastic. It's a miracle we decompose at all! :o

5 billion dead people will release all of that sludge back into the environment. If you want to help the planet, move all of these dead people into the sun. At least there Joan Rivers and Michael Jackson might have a chance to break down into carbon, oxygen, and nitrogen again.
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Challenge to Moderators and "Experts"

Unread postby Graeme » Sun 08 May 2005, 21:53:38

I challenge the Moderators and "Experts" of this forum to present their solutions to peak oil because most of their threads especially to contributors have been negative. I hope that the alternative name for this forum is not "The Chicken Little Club". Solution topics such as alternative fuels for cars/planes, energy for producing these fuels and for industrial/domestic use, and fertilizers are some that could be discussed.

The Industrial Revolution was started in the UK so I think that excellent solutions should come from there. Also if the courageous, enterprising, inspiring and innovative people of USA can put a man on the moon, then surely they too can present solutions to peak oil. Solutions can be found in threads in this forum, elsewhere on the Internet, and hopefully original contributions. Once solutions for the USA (and the rest of the industrialised world) are compiled, Colin Campbell could again communicate with Roscoe Bartlett (he has done so already), who could later present these solutions to the US Congress. Americas actions will influence the world. . .
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Unread postby TrueKaiser » Sun 08 May 2005, 21:56:26

i second the challenge.
anyone who says they should head out to a lesser populated area with a stock pile of food, water, and fire-arms should automaticly be disqualified.
Religion is excellent stuff for keeping the common people quiet.
'Napoleon Bonaparte'
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Unread postby Jack » Sun 08 May 2005, 22:12:01

An excellent solution was offered some months ago.

Jupiter has lots of methane. All we need to do is send spaceships to Jupiter, skim off methane, and come back to Earth. The elegance of the idea lies within its simplicity.

In the alternative, coming up with a fusion reactor that produces commercially useful positive energy flows should solve the problem. Of course, lots of scientists have expended lots of effort for decades without success, but why should we let that little matter dissuade us?

Interestingly enough, the book "Overshoot" uses the precise example in the initial post - i.e., "If man can go to the moon, etc." The underlying assumption is that some as yet unknown technology will change physical reality. Perhaps it will. But the difference between that sort of faith and the type practiced by the Easter Islanders and the Greenlanders eludes me.

Without the aforementioned technological miracle, we will face a choice - either reduce the energy requirements of the population, reduce the population, or some combination of the two.
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Unread postby Overlyhonest » Sun 08 May 2005, 22:14:20

Massive population reduction.
I do not have the heart, or lack of it to support bringing it on though.
In fact I will stand up and fight anyone who tries it. Haha, how is that for a catch 22
If I wish hard enough this problem will go away!
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Unread postby TrueKaiser » Sun 08 May 2005, 22:32:32

Overlyhonest wrote:Massive population reduction.
I do not have the heart, or lack of it to support bringing it on though.
In fact I will stand up and fight anyone who tries it. Haha, how is that for a catch 22


at least your taking this seriously and not dissmissing it off hand because it doesn't fit the mad max war lord fantasy a certain op that replyed has.
Religion is excellent stuff for keeping the common people quiet.
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Unread postby arocoun » Sun 08 May 2005, 23:38:39

Fundamental changes are needed in this society that the gluttonous, greedy sheeple don't want, and which corporate-run powers will never allow. Society not only needs to use much less energy, it also needs to change its tradition of exploitation and oppression. The amount of energy this society uses is plainly unsustainable, and the way in which it is used is detestable.

You cry out for a way in which you can go on with your ordinary life of excess and complexity, because you have grown addicted to your mastery. Your mastery over the earth and its resources, but also mastery over the less fortunate. You have thousands of energy slaves, and even a handful of far-away human slaves which you pay a few cents and hour to cater to your "needs," and now you can't let go. You will risk your life praying to the God of Technology to save you with space programs and nuclear fusion before you even consider just letting go of your slaves.

So here's my solution. Lower your level of technology, and get used to it. There doesn't need to be any warlords or Mad Max, but it can't be the way it is now either. You risk yourself and those that depend on you if you are waiting for congress to keep things "normal," and you'll perpetuate a society that doesn't deserve to exist if you succeed.
The Origin of Patriotic Philosophy
--We are Greek.
--The barbarians are not Greek.
--Therefore, we must conquer, exploit, and kill the barbarians.
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Unread postby Evltre » Sun 08 May 2005, 23:41:39

Also if the courageous, enterprising, inspiring and innovative people of USA can put a man on the moon


:lol:
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Re: Challenge to Moderators and "Experts"

Unread postby MonteQuest » Mon 09 May 2005, 00:14:58

Graeme wrote:I challenge the Moderators and "Experts" of this forum to present their solutions to peak oil because most of their threads especially to contributors have been negative.


2+2= 3 to a pessimist

2+2= 5 to an optimist

2+2= 4 to a realist.

The truth about our limits and options is only negative if not told.

Solutions to peak oil? What do you wish to solve? Replace oil and continue to maintain our current way of life and population through a transition to renewables? Highly unlikely.

Transition to renewables and avoid economic meltdown. Highly unlikely. Recession and depression with resource wars. Current plan A. We have no plan B

Power down to a simpler life with major population reduction. Maybe, but with a long term depression era following a series of recessions and resource wars.

#1 solution. Mother Nature's feedback loops that will bring the earth back into balance and let it heal.

I don't consider myself a doomer. After 30 years at this, I can hardly be one. :-D Just not very optimistic, given the fact that we haven't even started doing anything--except invading sovereign countries.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
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Unread postby Malthus » Mon 09 May 2005, 02:59:08

Short term 2010-2015

#1 ban sale of cars with lower than 30mpg
#2 promote diesel cars with higher mpg 50+ and drastically reduce the number of cars by imposing big tax on a second car per household, victimize single commuters may be even small fines (when you drive alone you drive with Bin laden stuff)
#3 huge nuclear reactor building program with used fuel reprocessing plants objective 50% of electricity provided by nukes by 2010 75%by 2020 stop burning coal
#4 research into the viability of molten salt reactors
#5 promote renewable energy generation wind + solar objective 10% of the electricity generation by 2010 (for wind and solar unfortunately it cant go much further without jeopardizing the viability of the grid)
#6 shut down all natural gaz power plants (too precious to burn)
#7 promote geothermal wherever possible
#8 stop the expansion of suburbia
#9 no family should live in a house larger 900 sq feet promote isolation, put on your sweater lower the thermostat
#10 progressive electricity and heating bill the more you consume the more you pay and if you contend with less it is practically free
#11 war on excess forget the goodies like vacations to Bali and the like huge taxation on air travel, make prohibitively expensive the possession of boats,trips from coast to coast etc...
#12 rebuilding rail infrastructure and public transportation
#13 triple funds for fusion research and space exploration ( one never knows)
#14 big recycling effort
#15 start promoting self sufficiency in food production (everybody could have a small secondary residence and a piece of land (0.1-0.2 hectares) in neighboorhoods outside of town where you can get with public transportation and work a bit on your vegetables garden like the russians do it.
#16 centralised management of the elelctrical grid
# 17 stop smelting operations using electricity switch to natural gaz or preferably coal
# 18 change monetary system

Long term 2020-2100

#1 stop population growth especially among the least intelligent no man or woman with an IQ lower than 110 should have babies in 2030 -2040 every body with an IQ lower than that should be sterilized we must breed intelligence into the population not breed it out as we do today
#2 stop any kind of growth objective peak energy and raw material consumption by 2015
#3 victimize all kind of material excess starting in schools people should compete in being most efficient not like today when we compete in being the least efficient
#4 probably the most important effective management and preservation of the top soils and bio diversity. This to me is the most important With the rate at which we destroy our top soils today we are headed to some long periods of structural famine if we dont act fast before 2020
#5 local food production using organic methods without destroying the soil objective 30% of the food produced locally by 2025 75 % by 2050
#6 schools should emphasize on theory of evolution,darwinism, ecology, thermodynamics, mathematics etc
#7 ridiculize religion into extinction ( I mean the very fact that we would start breeding intelligence in by sterilizing the stupid should probably be enough of a blow but just to make sure)
#8 Population objectives for the USA for 2040 260 milion for the world 6 bilion for 2060 230 milion ; 5.5 billion 2100 150 milion ; 2.5 billion
#9 massive space exploration effort viable colonies on Mars and the moon for research by 2075 after the end of the transistion period
#10 Leaders should be responsible and intelligent (dumb asses like G.W. are an insult to intelligence) and be an example of conservation efforts them selves not a bunch of oligarchs with vested interest in the preservation of the status quo
#11 no place for wedding planners, personal trainers, professional sportsmen and other useless jobs into the future

Anybody willing to help me run for president? :-D

Anyway the end will be the same probably we would just prolong our agony on this planet
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Unread postby jato » Mon 09 May 2005, 04:07:59

i second the challenge.
anyone who says they should head out to a lesser populated area with a stock pile of food, water, and fire-arms should automaticly be disqualified.


I have been disqualified.

I don't see any solutions. I only see pain. :(
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Oh..

Unread postby UIUCstudent01 » Mon 09 May 2005, 04:15:54

Oh, there are answers, but people don't like them. As a society, we don't plan, we react. (Communism/Socialism plans...) Capitalism schemes to get the most resources and the most work out of those who are desperate/ignorant. So. Yeah. The End.

Enjoy the party while you can. I would hate for the world to sprial into WW3, but in effect with M.A.D. it isn't possible. We'll just have economic wars and 'accidents'. Until the losing side just says this is bullshit... and launches a few missles.
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Unread postby skiwi » Mon 09 May 2005, 04:42:51

jato wrote:
i second the challenge.
anyone who says they should head out to a lesser populated area with a stock pile of food, water, and fire-arms should automaticly be disqualified.


I have been disqualified.

I don't see any solutions. I only see pain. :(


Me too even if the guns will be for culling the 'excess vermin' like deer goats pigs and possums from the nearby hills :razz:
Let us make him who shall nourish and sustain us. What shall we do to be invoked; to be remembered in the earth.
We have tried with our first creatures but we could not make them venerate us.
So let us try to make obedient respectful beings who shall
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Unread postby Sys1 » Mon 09 May 2005, 05:20:14

- Building a huge mirror in space to stop lighting cities the whole night and improve photosynthesis.
- Contacting E.T. and asking for help.
- Human engineering to improve our intelligence to find a solution to peak oil.
- Building a tractor beam to extract directly hydrogen from the sun.
- Picking up a black hole to get back in 1970 to change our way of life.
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The problem is the solution no ?

Unread postby Kickinthegob » Mon 09 May 2005, 05:20:20

Before I attempt to offer my solution I will say I have only been interested in peak oil for the last few months but have already come to some conclusions.

Peak Oil is just one little symptom of what is the only and most obvious problem, overpopulation of humans on planet earth.

Another symtom would be loss of biodiveristy and habitat destruction, perhaps even global warming.

So here is the solution to Peak Oil the way I see it.

We will continue on the path we are on, following the business as usual scenario. Since technology cannot be undiscovered, our machines and appliances will gobble the remaining energy supplies quickly. Without cheap oil a domino effect quickly takes place resulting in the race to consume any and all energy sources including coal and nuclear. To me this will be the most dangerous and destructive period of the human race. I think chances of survival during this period will be slim to none for most. Recent events have me thinking this period has already started.

Mother Nature will require no assistance erasing what she created if thats the way the cookie crumbles so to speak.

I don't want or need a solution to peak oil, I just accept it for what it is, the end of cheap energy. Unfortunately, we were all born into a human population peak that was derived from this cheap energy. Not much you can do except come up with your own solutions to a puzzle that can never be solved by our current way of thinking, which is only to consume more energy and produce even more humans. The problem is the solution no ?
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Unread postby killJOY » Mon 09 May 2005, 05:51:08

I have to tell you, I get sick of all the babble here. I'm going out and pruning my orchard.
Peak oil = comet Kohoutek.
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Re: Challenge to Moderators and "Experts"

Unread postby Doly » Mon 09 May 2005, 06:42:20

I'm writing first my cynical remarks, so if you don't want to read them, jump straight to the solutions section.

CYNICAL REMARKS

Graeme wrote:I challenge the Moderators and "Experts" of this forum to present their solutions to peak oil because most of their threads especially to contributors have been negative.


Most of the "experts" here aren't that expert. Yes, there are a few engineers and one person I know about that definitely knows his stuff about energy sources. Hardly a panel of experts to save the world, though.

Graeme wrote:The Industrial Revolution was started in the UK so I think that excellent solutions should come from there.


Getting into something doesn't mean that you know how to get out of it.

Graeme wrote:Also if the courageous, enterprising, inspiring and innovative people of USA can put a man on the moon, then surely they too can present solutions to peak oil.


A classic flawed argument. Doing one big engineering project doesn't mean that you can solve a big problem that affects the whole known world. Look at the ancient Egyptians. Building the pyramids didn't mean that they could give decent standards of living to the common people.

Graeme wrote:Once solutions for the USA (and the rest of the industrialised world) are compiled, Colin Campbell could again communicate with Roscoe Bartlett (he has done so already), who could later present these solutions to the US Congress.


Do you honestly believe that the US President isn't aware of the issue, hasn't already put together a panel of experts (very probably better than what can be put together in this forum), and isn't taking decisions upon the solutions given?

Graeme wrote:Americas actions will influence the world.


No doubt of that. However, I think that there is a distinct possibility that it isn't possible with current technology to save America from falling to the level of a banana republic. It's also possible that other places that weren't built on cheap oil have better chances to keep their standards of living a bit higher than that. In that case, there just might be a conflict between what is good for America and what is good for other parts of the world.

SOLUTIONS

I'm not an expert. My opinions are just that, opinions. But, for whatever they are worth, here they are.

The obvious steps for any government (and what I believe most governments are doing anyway, but not openly) are:

1) Prepare for a 70s style economic recession
2) Establish the basis to be able to ration oil products and other necessities in the future
3) Encourage investment and research in all types of renewable energies, including nuclear
4) Gather as much information as possible in current oil reserves and take decisions accordingly
5) Establish the basis for a firm population control policy (this is especially for governments in developing countries; developed countries can expect that economic recession will automatically reduce birth rate)
6) Gradually introduce the concept of a coming oil crisis to the people
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Unread postby RonMN » Mon 09 May 2005, 06:58:49

I'll give it a shot. This wouldn't be an all out "sollution" to PO but it could help.

We begin building power plants based on the "Stirling Engine". This engine has no moving parts (save internal gasses) and needs 1 hot end & 1 cool end. Not even really "hot", there simply needs to be a temperature variation.

So 1 end could be above ground and 1 below ground to supply the temperature variation. Or perhaps above water & below water...or even use the geothermal heat of yellowstone.

Thus we could (once enough power plants were built) stop burning nat' gas for electricity generation, but this would still not solve the liquid fuels problem...and i don't know if we could build enough powerplants in the remaining time to make a large difference.

My $0.02
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