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Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Tue 10 Jul 2018, 10:36:59
by Newfie
Dohboi,

If things were as you say then the Green Revolution should have stabilized population around 3 billion or so and assured food security to the population. Yet food insecurity has not improved or worsened. It would seem the practical experiment did not follow the theory.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Tue 10 Jul 2018, 12:46:14
by farmlad
dohboi wrote: With that in mind... if I was the absolute ruler of the world, and could wave a wand and make most people mostly vegan most of the time, as had been the case in the fairly recent past...


If I were the ruler all synthetic N P and K would be severely taxed. This would help make regenerative food production more competitive in the short term and feeding of grains to livestock less competitive. This way the animal derived foods would be more grassfed and/or regenerative.

I feel strongly that humans can help make natural systems even more productive as in the amount of animal biomass that can be sustained in a given area. Take for example an old growth forest east of the Mississippi. By cutting out 1/2 to 2/3 of the trees and turning it into a Savannah the lbs of animal biomass/acre that it can sustain can easily be doubled or tripled. As I understand the native Americans used controlled fire to maintain the Savannahs throughout the eastern USA to provide habitat for whitetail elk pheasant turkey and even bison.

And another pet peeve of mine. Land does not need to be arable to provide food for humans. Rocky hilly poor soils can grow all sorts of nut trees etc. while contributing to the overall ecosystem function and maintaining and even improving the soil etc. It just requires a lot of hand labor instead of all the machinery that can be used on more accommodating soils.

Semi Arid areas which covers about 1/3 of the landmass of our planet can raise a lot of animal biomass if managed properly with herds of domesticated herbivores in a way that improves the ecosystem function so that at the same time the total biomass of wild animals can also be increased. This has been well demonstrated on many ranches across the world. http://www.africacentreforholisticmanagement.org/ https://holisticmanagement.org/

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Tue 10 Jul 2018, 13:32:56
by dohboi
"If I were the ruler all synthetic N P and K would be severely taxed"

Good plan! Or just banished altogether (or restricted to use only in a few particularly needy places, perhaps).

Your other points are well taken, too.

Meanwhile, some smart investors are pretty confident that plant based diets are the wave of the future:

A&W introduces Beyond Meat vegetarian burgers across Canada



The burger chain partnered with California-based Beyond Meat to create a plant-based burger that it is now serving at its more than 925 restaurants across Canada.

The company, whose investors include Bill Gates and Leonardo DiCaprio, makes its Beyond Meat burger with beets to mimic beef’s red colouring, and coconut oil and potato starch to give it a similar juiciness and chew.

A&W says it is the first national burger chain to bring the plant-based burger to Canadian customers and Beyond Meat’s largest restaurant partner.

Beyond Meat sells its plant-based burgers, sausages, and chicken strips at thousands of American retailers and the company says its products are served at over 11,000 restaurants and other food service outlets mostly in the U.S.

https://business.financialpost.com/pmn/ ... oss-canada

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Wed 11 Jul 2018, 00:46:23
by Shaved Monkey
dohboi wrote:SM wrote, beautiful about the use of humanure. Where did they source it from?

Im assuming a sewage farm or a composting facility that is composting the pumped out septics ?

I cant ask they both passed on it was about 8 or 10 years ago

A friend has the contract to clean out the drop toilets in the national parks he gets trailer loads to dump on his property.
He also does the treatment plant in a gated community which is zeolite and humanure trailer loads every month

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Wed 11 Jul 2018, 00:51:52
by Shaved Monkey
If you have land that is useless for anything, no fertility, rocky and not enough rain....goats will love it

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Wed 11 Jul 2018, 09:11:06
by Newfie
Some years ago Philadelphia revamped one of their seeerbplants to capture a lot of solids and turn it into manure. The plant was just N of the airport and I would drive by it daily. You would see the rows of compost heap up and then eventually disappear to be healed up again. I heard a radio show where they talked about the program in good terms and how the waste was used. It stank at times.

Then it was shut down, can’t recall when. But it no longer appears to be in operation. No clue what happened. Can’t find anything about it in the web. Just gone. Lots of other Green Philly blather, but this seemed to be a real operation.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Wed 11 Jul 2018, 09:41:02
by Cog
"If I were the ruler all synthetic N P and K would be severely taxed"

Good plan! Or just banished altogether (or restricted to use only in a few particularly needy places, perhaps)."


Sounds like the veggies desire the death of billions. Nothing really new there.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Wed 11 Jul 2018, 20:23:44
by dohboi
Sooooo, if we supply more food to the masses we are demons, and if we do something that is (mis-)interpreted as restricting food to the masses, we are accused of yearning for the murder of billions.

I think we can all just agree now that y'all just hate the idea of anyone suggesting you might want to restrict by one iota your consumption of your precious pound of animal flesh, so anyone who does provide such cogent positions must of course be some kind of spawn of the devil.

Not much use in continuing a conversation with such heads so firmly buried in their own shite.

Have a nice day.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Thu 12 Jul 2018, 06:14:59
by Newfie
No, it’s a demonstration of the cunumdrum we are in.

There are no answers let alone “right” answers.

MY point is just that, when someone pushes this or that as “the answer” it is often creating more problems someplace else. It’s inevitable.

What I am arguing against is that there is some remain class that if removed or converted would fix the problem.

Dohboi this is where I see you and Cog as doppelgängers, religious extremism. I probably do that as well at times. I apologize.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Thu 12 Jul 2018, 06:43:45
by Ibon
Newfie wrote:MY point is just that, when someone pushes this or that as “the answer” it is often creating more problems someplace else. It’s inevitable.

.


This is why human overshoot is check mate in reference to "solving it" Which is furthermore why the real solutions at the end of the day are the very issues we fear and try so hard to "solve"..... like climate change, pandemics,poverty, starvation, wars, etc.

These are bitter pills for a population educated and socialized that we can have it all.

I think bitter pills are part of the "solution"

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Thu 12 Jul 2018, 18:54:32
by Newfie
Yes, and I don’t have any answers to contribute. Regretfully.

I go round and round; what’s the point of beating my head why not just enjoy the party? But something in me raiks against that; giving up, destroying Earth for my off spring and the rest of life.

All very confusing.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 13 Jul 2018, 14:50:09
by dohboi
I think there is indeed no 'solution' or 'solutions.'

As M. Mann recently tweeted, we are all f'd...but we still have some control over how badly we (and are progeny) will be f'd going forward.

Not seeing this is a kind of blindness of binary thinking, and very useful if someone wants rationalize why they don't have any personal responsibility to do anything (or to stop doing things that are doing more harm!).

I see a lot of that and other sorts of rationalizations around here. You all are quite good at it!! :-D :-D

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 13 Jul 2018, 16:03:46
by Ibon
dohboi wrote:
I see a lot of that and other sorts of rationalizations around here. You all are quite good at it!! :-D :-D


Quite reflective of the population at large. By the way Dohboi can you please remind all of us why your shit dont stink? Thank you.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 13 Jul 2018, 17:34:48
by dohboi
Oh, you didn't know??

Vegan shit don't stink!!

:-D :-D :-D

Actually, it's rather true. In the past, when I would alternate some between pure vegan and some meat eating, I could really smell the difference when I went to the head!

But hey, I know I can count on y'all to point out my own rationalizations. It's easier to see them in others than in yourself. Ideally, this could, and at its best is, a primary function of this kind of forum...to call each other out on our bs excuses and rationalizations.

Of course, that process isn't always particularly...pretty. As we've seen on this forum! :)

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sun 15 Jul 2018, 07:05:59
by Shaved Monkey
Vegans fart more than meat eaters does this outweigh any savings in greenhouse gasses we would get by reducing the size of cow herds if more people became vegan?

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sun 15 Jul 2018, 08:39:04
by dohboi
It's true that when you start going vegan, especially from straight omnivory, one tends to become a bit more flatulent.

But most people find that over time you system adjusts, and the eruptions subside.

So no, I don't think that constitutes a notable contribution to the ghg burden. And of course there is always Beano and other such products or home remedies.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sun 15 Jul 2018, 11:33:18
by pstarr
Yapping on the internet consumes 8% of the nation's carbon allocations. You are depriving someone of their Kardashians. 17,000 posts, none about peak oil

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sun 15 Jul 2018, 12:20:15
by dohboi
Ah, more off topic false accusations.

Back on topic, though...in my experience, beer drinking causes more flatulence than veganism does.

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Sun 15 Jul 2018, 13:01:52
by pstarr
Off topic or false?

First-world CO2 emissions and meat eating (and procreating and sledding and gardening) emit CO2, not available to a poor vegan Hindu persons. I don't see how they get any food, much less watch Bollywood Kardashians :x

Re: Meat Eaters Are Killing The Planet

Unread postPosted: Fri 20 Jul 2018, 04:13:22
by onlooker
The issues of population and ethics aside, the enormous CO2 contribution of Meat and Dairy seems indisputable. A new report
"Meat and dairy companies to surpass oil industry as world’s biggest polluters, report finds"
https://www.independent.co.uk/environme ... 51871.html