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Richest 10% Produce 50% of Carbon Emissions

Unread postPosted: Sat 03 Dec 2016, 00:50:06
by dohboi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PImK8Q_ ... ture=share

That's pretty much where all of us on these threads are.

So, wadayagonnadoaboutit?

Re: Richest 10% Produce 50% of Carbon Emissions

Unread postPosted: Sat 03 Dec 2016, 03:09:36
by KaiserJeep
The problem is that you only need to make $18,000 per person to be in that top 10% of the world's most wealthy. The median income he world over is $1225. That means that 3.7 billion people make less than $1225 annually.

Welfare and social security recipients in the USA qualify in the richest 10% in the world.

Say you have a family of four and a combined family income of $72K or more. Congratulations on being in the top 10% and the re-distribution people would therefore take 75% of your income and give it to the breeders of the world.

Redistribution doesn't seem like a plan that accomplishes anything. If you want to end fossil fuel consumption, go after that instead. Also, don't excuse the big polluters such as palm oil plantations, slash & burn agriculture in South America, and the other major carbon emitters. Don't excuse anybody, and if your carbon tax makes the difference between a 3rd world family's malnutrition and outright starvation, so be it.

To do otherwise simply promotes and rewards idleness. Which Tax & Spend Democrats have never understood.

Thank goodness, we don't get all the government we pay for.

Re: Richest 10% Produce 50% of Carbon Emissions

Unread postPosted: Sat 03 Dec 2016, 14:54:26
by dohboi
"you only need to make $18,000 per person to be in that top 10% of the world's most wealthy"

Yeah, somewhere in there.

Here's another estimate:

"If you earn $25,000 or more annually, you are in the top 10% of the world's income-earners"

https://irememberthepoor.org/3-2/

If you only earn $25,000 per year, you’re in the top 10 percent.


http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/09/the-t ... the-world/

Re: Richest 10% Produce 50% of Carbon Emissions

Unread postPosted: Sat 03 Dec 2016, 15:46:23
by KaiserJeep
I believe your figures, too. I think the difference is that I gave "per capita" figures, since not everyone is an actual wage earner.

However, the point that I was trying to make is that many more people than you think - 740,000,000 - are in that 10%, since we just blew through the 7.4B total population milestone within the past month.

Most of us in the world's top 10% are not wealthy in the societies we live in. I for example am feeling the pinch of no longer having a (barely) six figure income. Just the wife's salary is kinda tight for living in the Silicon Valley. She is driving a 15-year old SUV with several things broke on it we have decided are not worth fixing as the repairs would exceed the value of the vehicle. Mine is only 13 years old, and in better shape. We eat pretty well, but no longer can afford the 100% organic diet we had when I was working. Nor could we afford to live here in Silly Valley if we had to pay a mortgage.

But in Belize, or in Baja California, or in any of a dozen less developed places, our income would allow us to live very comfortably. Even our SS and other retirement incomes would do that. In those places, an annual $18,000 income would put a family of four comfortably in the Middle Class.

Unfortunately, the wife and I are retiring in Wisconsin, full of Democrats who are ready and even eager to take most of your retirement income in taxes, and spend it on things that benefit - almost exclusively - other people. We won't have much income, but they will tax real estate and personal property and many other things.

It so happens that I in particular have taken pains to reduce my carbon emissions. I feel comfortable that I have reduced them to 25% or less relative to the average American - and am scheming to reduce them even more following the wife's retirement and our relocation to the MidWest.

The statement that 10% of the richest produce 50% of the carbon emissions is simply not a useful or particularly informative one. I would say that - if they cared enough to actually take action - the wealthiest 10% could reduce their carbon emissions to 15% of the present total, down from 50%. The total carbon emissions would be 1/3rd lower than it is today, a useful improvement.

That would be the productive and positive way to express the concept. The original statement smacks of elite bashing - and neither you nor me consider ourselves among the elites, is my guess.

Re: Richest 10% Produce 50% of Carbon Emissions

Unread postPosted: Sat 03 Dec 2016, 17:16:34
by kiwichick
those of us living in rich countries should encourage our young people to limit the number of children they have, preferably to 2 or less


stabilizing the population won't fix the problems by itself , but we can't solve the problems if we keep adding 200,000 more human beings to the planet every day

and we need to do all we can to incentivize young people everywhere to delay having their first child.....the longer women delay having their first child the fewer children in total they have

Re: Richest 10% Produce 50% of Carbon Emissions

Unread postPosted: Sat 03 Dec 2016, 17:25:49
by vtsnowedin
kiwichick wrote:those of us living in rich countries should encourage our young people to limit the number of children they have, preferably to 2 or less


stabilizing the population won't fix the problems by itself , but we can't solve the problems if we keep adding 200,000 more human beings to the planet every day

and we need to do all we can to incentivize young people everywhere to delay having their first child.....the longer women delay having their first child the fewer children in total they have

Having three daughters over thirty with no grandchildren I think I've done my part on that.
To really cut the carbon foot print of the top ten percent we would need to scrap all the automobiles and commercial aircraft.

Re: Richest 10% Produce 50% of Carbon Emissions

Unread postPosted: Sat 03 Dec 2016, 19:58:44
by Outcast_Searcher
kiwichick wrote:those of us living in rich countries should encourage our young people to limit the number of children they have, preferably to 2 or less


stabilizing the population won't fix the problems by itself , but we can't solve the problems if we keep adding 200,000 more human beings to the planet every day

and we need to do all we can to incentivize young people everywhere to delay having their first child.....the longer women delay having their first child the fewer children in total they have

Yes. We can also set a good example for young people by living a low carbon lifestyle, and pointing out that it's possible to do the right thing on occasion. (You can do this without being preachy, being low key and only doing it when the subject / right opportunity comes up. Not having kids of my own, it's how I choose to handle various "teaching moments". YMMV, of course).

On Turkey day my eldest neice (with a child due in May) was talking about needing a car. I pointed out that this might work out well. That if she didn't mind driving a Corolla, I could give she and her husband my good as new Corolla, and that it had good safety test results, would take a child seat, was cheap to run and maintain, etc.

"But what about you?" she asked.

"Well, I replied, "I'd like to get a Prius Prime and lower my gasoline burning from 4000ish miles to 200ish miles a year. There's no point in having two cars in my driveway".

"But why would you want to do that?", she asked. "I'd have thought you'd keep that car for another decade."

"True enough, generally.", I replied. "However, now with how serious AGW is", the practical technology is here at a resonable price. I want to do this to set an example (I don't expect to see a lot of these cars in KY, at least not in the short term), and it is the right thing to do. I can afford it. If people like me don't buy this sort of car to further lower their carbon footprint, who will?"

I have no idea whether such actions/examples will collectively do any good over time. All we can do is try. It's the principle of the thing. IMO, it's the right thing to do.

And my 3 driving age neices/nephews drive a LOT, like their parents, so it seemed worth the shot to mention the message.

I probably won't know if my offer or the message is accepted for a few months or so. (Pushing, IMO, is the LAST thing to do).

Re: Richest 10% Produce 50% of Carbon Emissions

Unread postPosted: Sat 03 Dec 2016, 21:25:41
by KaiserJeep
The dream I have is to keep my 2003 Jeep Wrangler, as a spare vehicle and a snowplow and a vacation vehicle. The engine would be converted to burn E85 fuel, based on the theory that such fuel would be available longer in the MidWestern corn belt than the E10 gasoline sold now. I would be surprised if I drove it 200 miles per year, unless going camping or towing. The wife's 2001 Cherokee would be sold here in California, and replaced with another E85-capable medium SUV - or better yet, a plug-in hybrid medium sized SUV. Maybe even a Chevy Bolt or a Tesla 3.

As for the offspring, I had one, and she planned to have one, and instead we got twin grandkids - a blessing, and they are now approaching 18 months old, and I'll be getting re-acquainted with them in a week.

I don't think that we are any of us very different in our heartfelt goals, although we do squabble a bit here at PO.com. But in the end, we all seem to have very similar middle-class values, in a world where the Middle Class is rapidly disappearing.

Re: Richest 10% Produce 50% of Carbon Emissions

Unread postPosted: Sun 04 Dec 2016, 22:57:52
by dohboi
KJ wrote: "... many more people than you think ..."

KJ, kindly cease and desist from ever presuming you know anything about what I think. Here (and generally) you are 100% wrong in your assumptions of my presumed ignorance.

Thank you.

But on this: "...the wealthiest 10% could reduce their carbon emissions.."

We can certainly agree. But in fact, on average, most have not and probably will not.

Re: Richest 10% Produce 50% of Carbon Emissions

Unread postPosted: Sun 04 Dec 2016, 23:03:38
by dohboi
vt wrote: "Having three daughters over thirty with no grandchildren I think I've done my part ..."

It sounds to me as though your awesome daughters are the ones who have 'done their part' and you're trying to take credit for their restraint, restrain which you could not seem to muster yourself.

Just a point.

Be proud of your kids...don't try to steal their luster or take overmuch credit for their virtues.

(Just my unsolicited, free advice, which is probably worth as much as the charge! :-D :) :lol: :P :oops: )

Re: Richest 10% Produce 50% of Carbon Emissions

Unread postPosted: Mon 05 Dec 2016, 09:14:16
by vtsnowedin
dohboi wrote:vt wrote: "Having three daughters over thirty with no grandchildren I think I've done my part ..."

It sounds to me as though your awesome daughters are the ones who have 'done their part' and you're trying to take credit for their restraint, restrain which you could not seem to muster yourself.

Just a point.

Be proud of your kids...don't try to steal their luster or take overmuch credit for their virtues.

(Just my unsolicited, free advice, which is probably worth as much as the charge! :-D :) :lol: :P :oops: )

Sending them off to college is my only positive action on population control but it is working more then I ever imagined.
Their considerable accomplishments are certainly due to their efforts and not mine though the Missis deserves a few college credits for editing dozens of college papers with a Catholic school"s attention to spelling and grammar. :)

Re: Richest 10% Produce 50% of Carbon Emissions

Unread postPosted: Mon 05 Dec 2016, 10:46:18
by dohboi
HA, I've just been doing some editing of my own daughter's college papers.

We all do what we can.

Congratulations again on what sounds like an excellent family!

Re: Richest 10% Produce 50% of Carbon Emissions

Unread postPosted: Mon 05 Dec 2016, 11:50:45
by vtsnowedin
dohboi wrote:HA, I've just been doing some editing of my own daughter's college papers.

We all do what we can.

Congratulations again on what sounds like an excellent family!

Wait until the day comes when you suddenly realize that one of your children is smarter (not just more educated but smarter) then you are and you should start taking his or her advise very seriously. You feel old and proud at the same moment.

Re: Richest 10% Produce 50% of Carbon Emissions

Unread postPosted: Tue 14 Nov 2017, 01:01:02
by dohboi
The richest 10% of people produce half of Earth’s climate-harming fossil-fuel emissions, while the poorest half contribute a mere 10%, British charity Oxfam said in a report …

The report said that an average person among the richest one percent emits 175 times more carbon than his or her counterpart among the bottom 10%.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... says-oxfam

Just to come back to the study that launched this thread...a good reminder to us all.

Re: Richest 10% Produce 50% of Carbon Emissions

Unread postPosted: Thu 16 Nov 2017, 19:15:41
by onlooker
And yet according to what I have read, the poor South will be disproportionately affected by AGW. I see no concrete actions to ameliorate this situation.

Re: Richest 10% Produce 50% of Carbon Emissions

Unread postPosted: Fri 17 Nov 2017, 12:38:36
by jedrider
onlooker wrote:And yet according to what I have read, the poor South will be disproportionately affected by AGW. I see no concrete actions to ameliorate this situation.


The poor ALWAYS feel the most pain. I think it is completely useless to mention who feels the pain.

The wealthy think they can isolate themselves with their money. This is the mindset that has to be changed.

Re: Richest 10% Produce 50% of Carbon Emissions

Unread postPosted: Fri 17 Nov 2017, 13:11:35
by GHung
The wealthy think they can isolate themselves with their money. This is the mindset that has to be changed...


.... because they always have in the past. Winter homes on Jekyll Island, summer retreats in the Adirondacks, private compounds and communities in places like Long Island and Nantucket... How do you change that? Pitchforks and Kalashnikovs?

Re: Richest 10% Produce 50% of Carbon Emissions

Unread postPosted: Fri 17 Nov 2017, 16:49:53
by Cog
Except for the fact that the left, who are always quick to talk about income inequality, also want to ban guns. Good luck with all that revolution stuff without them.

Re: Richest 10% Produce 50% of Carbon Emissions

Unread postPosted: Fri 17 Nov 2017, 16:59:57
by Outcast_Searcher
jedrider wrote:
onlooker wrote:And yet according to what I have read, the poor South will be disproportionately affected by AGW. I see no concrete actions to ameliorate this situation.


The poor ALWAYS feel the most pain. I think it is completely useless to mention who feels the pain.

The wealthy think they can isolate themselves with their money. This is the mindset that has to be changed.

But of course. Let's pretend like "the poor" have NONE of their situation due to self-inflicted behaviors. As if actions didn't have consequences.

When I was in my 20's, I noticed that a lot of businesses had a smattering of cars in the parking lots on Saturdays. Clearly people working overtime. And I noticed that a large plurality of those cars were fancy cars and/or luxury cars. Aha! That correlation isn't an accident.

But let's pretend wealth and work have no correlation, so we can blame "the rich" for all our problems. As though that will solve the problem. :roll:

Re: Richest 10% Produce 50% of Carbon Emissions

Unread postPosted: Fri 17 Nov 2017, 17:00:21
by onlooker
Cog wrote:Except for the fact that the left, who are always quick to talk about income inequality, also want to ban guns. Good luck with all that revolution stuff without them.

What are your handguns and rifles going to do against a modern well armed potent military ?