[Cid_Yama]

Their are several sacred cows in the Western world, Big Agriculture, Pharmaceuticals/Health Care, the Defense Industry, Banking and Insurance, and Centralized Energy.

Decades ago, we could have switched to personalized energy generation, but it was anathema to TPTB.

They told us wind and solar wouldn't work because of difficulties in transmission and storage. But those difficulties only existed for CENTRALIZED energy generation.

Personal generation could have gone forward without difficulty, except for all of the political roadblocks thrown up for the sole purpose of preventing it. Centralized energy was one of the sacred cows that allowed for power and control and one of the means of harvesting the wealth of the people.

Lobbyists and spin doctors ensured that the topic could not be broached unless you were talking about CENTRALIZED energy.

All of the choices offered to the people, Nuclear, Gas, Coal were not all of the choices. Personal generation could have been subsidized and by now, everyone could have been generating their own electricity.

But that would have meant loss of power and loss of wealth to those with the means to prevent it. So they did. It wasn't that it couldn't be done. They prevented it from happening.

One other thing, Centralized generation and transmission is EXTREMELY wasteful, so much is lost between generation and the consumer. And it makes us vulnerable in a way that isn't necessary.

So when the nuclear advocates get on here declaring it as the ONLY way to move forward. Tell them you know different.

[onlooker]

Yes I read about breakthroughs by Tesla that would have precisely allowed this form of free universal energy. AC currents and zero point (free) energy would have allowed vast areas to be covered by electrical generation at very low costs. DC was much more limited. Alas civilization seems to have gone the route of centralizes electrical generation rather than the diffused cheap/free breakthroughs that seemed inevitable at the time. As the OP states centralizes is all about centralized power and profits.

[SeaGypsy]

There is real doubt about Tesla's displays of 'zero point energy'. Nobody has been able to replicate his shows, & not for lack of trying. The idea has become mythology. You know the guy died in a lunatic asylum right? Perhaps it wasn't the evil conspiracy to destroy his free energy thingamajig but he actually did go totally bonkers. The association between genius & insanity is well known.

[Cog]

Zero point energy LOL.

So where are you going to get the lithium for the billions of batteries to store power when the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't' blowing? In fantasy land apparently.

Centralized energy production is much more efficient than billions of individual power producing operations. Unless we are simply talking about having a few led lights so you don't trip over something at night.

[onlooker]

Efficient for whom? For the bureaucracy yep. As for the masses imagine a virtually unlimited virtually free source of energy for everyone. Suddenly the mundane material cares and concerns become much less of a problem. Oh and no hefty fees in fact NO fees. Yep I know does not equate to the spirit of capitalism, where is the profit to be made?

[Cog]

Efficient for whom? For the bureaucracy yep. As for the masses imagine a virtually unlimited virtually free source of energy for everyone. Suddenly the mundane material cares and concerns become much less of a problem. Oh and no hefty fees in fact NO fees. Yep I know does not equate to the spirit of capitalism, where is the profit to be made?

Please study thermodynamics and physics and get back to me about free energy. It should only take you a year or so depending on your intelligence level. Zero point energy? Worst scam since Rossi's E-Cat.

[Hawkcreek]

Zero point energy LOL.

So where are you going to get the lithium for the billions of batteries to store power when the sun isn't shining and the wind isn't' blowing? In fantasy land apparently.

Centralized energy production is much more efficient than billions of individual power producing operations. Unless we are simply talking about having a few led lights so you don't trip over something at night.

When I joined this board in 2004, almost everyone here was talking about disaster looming because it was impossible to do anything of worth with alternative energy. A couple of years later I went off grid (using lead-acid batteries for storage), and found out just how easy it was to live with a minimum energy footprint. This includes a lot more than a few LED lights.
For less than the cost of a new car (and using fewer resources), anyone could do it.
I still hear the same old thing, but the costs of going off-grid seem to be going down all the time.
Yeah, maybe people in the third world can't buy a new car every 5 years or so, but almost everyone in the US seems to do it. If you live in an area of the country with more sunny days than cloudy days, you can live offgrid too. If I have a week or so with lousy sun, I cut down my energy use and/or use a small generator to charge my batteries for an hour a day. It takes about a pint of fuel per day in those conditions.
Distributed energy production is possible, and drive through the southwest and you will see just how many rooftops are sprouting PV panels.
It is happening at the same time that some are hollering it isn't possible. Kind of funny.

[Outcast_Searcher]

[
Distributed energy production is possible, and drive through the southwest and you will see just how many rooftops are sprouting PV panels.
It is happening at the same time that some are hollering it isn't possible. Kind of funny.

Just because it is possible doesn't mean it is practical, cost wise.

The installation costs for solar panels aren't going away any time soon. I can't apparently even get solar shingles installed from a reputable dealer with a great reputation, at least according to the web searches I do. (Plenty of hits for states like CA though).

It's not that such technologies are "impossible", it's that in a world where voters and politicians which cater to them refuse to make meaningful steps toward mitigating climate change, aside from early adopters who don't care about price, it's not economically practical.

This is the main reason why I think in the short run, BEV's are a joke. What middle class family can afford a $30,000ish BEV AND the solar installation to charge it? Until they can, running a BEV on coal isn't exactly brilliant carbon footprint reduction, nor pollution management.

[Hawkcreek]

Just because it is possible doesn't mean it is practical, cost wise.

The installation costs for solar panels aren't going away any time soon. I can't apparently even get solar shingles installed from a reputable dealer with a great reputation, at least according to the web searches I do. (Plenty of hits for states like CA though).

It's not that such technologies are "impossible", it's that in a world where voters and politicians which cater to them refuse to make meaningful steps toward mitigating climate change, aside from early adopters who don't care about price, it's not economically practical.

This is the main reason why I think in the short run, BEV's are a joke. What middle class family can afford a $30,000ish BEV AND the solar installation to charge it? Until they can, running a BEV on coal isn't exactly brilliant carbon footprint reduction, nor pollution management.

You're kind of right. Few people are willing to learn how to install a PV system, even though there is free information all over the place on how to do it.
And a brand new BEV is out of reach of a lot of people, especially with a PV charging station. But In 5 years, a new electrical vehicle will be a used one (probably needing a new battery pack), and the price will go down a whole lot. Again, it will be only the few who learn how to work on such a vehicle, changing batteries if necessary.
It seems to me that all these limitation are limitation of people, not the technology or economy. People who are just too lazy to learn new skills.
I learned to work on cars when I was young and too broke to afford a mechanic. I expect the new class of young, broke people will be the ones who will adopt decentralized power, and BEV's.
All the old lazy f**kers will just have to stay at home, freezing in the dark.

[Outcast_Searcher]

I learned to work on cars when I was young and too broke to afford a mechanic. I expect the new class of young, broke people will be the ones who will adopt decentralized power, and BEV's.
All the old lazy f**kers will just have to stay at home, freezing in the dark.

So let's see. If a baby boomer points to lots of spoiled millenials living in their parents' basements rent free, that is politically incorrect. But calling older people who have real health problems like bad hearts, lots of joint pain, etc. "lazy" if they don't do their own auto maintenance is brilliant commentary.

OK.

Meanwhile my point about real world costs stands. If those costs come way down and BEV's prove to be competitive with traditional cars, given the costs of decentralized electricity, then I expect things to start to change at more than the early adopter fringe.

By the way, in the real world, older people who want mobility are expected to lead the adoption of the self driving car. (The world where fracking is leading to big oil gluts, not us running out of oil real soon now). http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... ed-seniors

[clif]

You know the guy died in a lunatic asylum right?

Pure unadulterated hogwash

On 7 January 1943, at the age of 86, Tesla died alone in room 3327 of the New Yorker Hotel. His body was later found by maid Alice Monaghan after she had entered Tesla's room, ignoring the "do not disturb" sign that Tesla had placed on his door two days earlier.

New Yorker Hotel

The New Yorker A Wyndham Hotel is a historic hotel located at 481 Eighth Avenue in New York City, United States. The 43-story Art Deco hotel, opened 1930, is a 1083-room, mid-priced hotel located in Manhattan's Garment District and Hell's Kitchen areas, near Pennsylvania Station, Madison Square Garden, Times Square, and the Empire State Building.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyndham_New_Yorker_Hotel

Facts still do matter ....

[SeaGypsy]

OK not physically in the looney bin, but professionally.

[Cid_Yama]

Not talking about Tesla.

Talking about personalized Wind and Solar Generation. (or even water if you have a stream. Whatever will turn a turbine.)

The expense has been due to the Legislative (and propaganda) full frontal assault by those that stand to lose with it's adoption.

But times are a changin'.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/1720452883 ... noapp=true

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solar-Power-Gen ... Sw~gRVvjgM

http://www.whirlopedia.com/index.php/cy ... -turbines/

It is happening. Even in the face of the resistance. Too late.

Ask Newfie about the setup on his boat.

Isn't it enlightening that it's always the same people on here taking the opposing position. Whatever it is that will assist or free the people from the grip.

These have been around for almost a century, attach a generator and you're in business. Using the heat in your attic to drive the turbine. (and ventilating your attic at the same time.)

Solar updraft towers though designed for centralized generation, could be downscaled for personal generation. Solar heating driving the updraft. Chimney Turbines were envisioned by Leonardo Da Vinci 500 years ago.

This is simple people. Anything that will turn a turbine. Efficiency doesn't matter, since the driving force is free. If one isn't enough, install three.

And what about that exercise bike, why let that energy go to waste? Attach a generator.

Soylent Green

[onlooker]

Since we are talking about centralized energy do not forget that the Fossil Fuel companies sabotaged and stopped the production of EV vehicles at a time when we could have employed them on a wide scale basis. Of course they would, they are in the business of finding and selling Oil.

[Hawkcreek]

So let's see. If a baby boomer points to lots of spoiled millenials living in their parents' basements rent free, that is politically incorrect. But calling older people who have real health problems like bad hearts, lots of joint pain, etc. "lazy" if they don't do their own auto maintenance is brilliant commentary.

Meanwhile my point about real world costs stands. If those costs come way down and BEV's prove to be competitive with traditional cars, given the costs of decentralized electricity, then I expect things to start to change at more than the early adopter fringe.

By the way, in the real world, older people who want mobility are expected to lead the adoption of the self driving car. (The world where fracking is leading to big oil gluts, not us running out of oil real soon now). http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... ed-seniors

I retired at age 68 because of heart problems. I still do my own vehicle maintenance, and work every day on improving my 60 acres. I just do it a lot slower, and bitch a little more about my painful joints. I stand by my comments about most people just being too lazy to learn to work on their own stuff. I think that more than 70% of senior health problems are caused by laziness and poor diet choices -- all things that seniors CHOOSE. I have made many changes to my own diet because of information I have learned about cardiovascular health.
Probably not "brilliant" commentary, but I call them like I see them.
As far as the self driving cars, that is an ideal use of the electric vehicle. Short trips around town, with localized automatic charging stations, would probably work right now, even with short range EV's.
And real world costs be damned. If gas prices go up too much, I will be building my own EV from junkyard parts. I will probably be competing with teenagers in rooting through the junkyards, though. All the other old farts my age are mostly watching tv all day.

[Outcast_Searcher]

I think that more than 70% of senior health problems are caused by laziness and poor diet choices -- all things that seniors CHOOSE. I have made many changes to my own diet because of information I have learned about cardiovascular health.

Well, with respect, do you have a medical degree? For the individual having health problem "X", which doctors can't figure out over several decades, they may have another POV.

Until I was almost 22 I was basically as healthy as a horse. Not being a good athlete in terms of speed and coordination, I chose weight lifting to stay in shape (and convince the odd large jerk to leave me alone). I was bench pressing twice my own weight, which was rare, even for people winning power lifting contests, so presumably not too much laziness there. Oh, and working a job and making a 4.0 GPA by force of will.

Now, suddenly, I start having intermittent VERY painful joint problems, which seem to correlate with exercise and certain foods. Lots of medical tests. No answers. Ever. I personally think it is something like a mild rheumatoid arthritis from my reading and the symptoms, and now in my 50's I do have an elevated rheumatoid factor -- but the numbers aren't such that the doctors want to treat.

(And note -- there was NOTHING new or different about my lifestyle around the time that happened. I was a senior in college, living in the same dorm, eating the same food, keeping the same schedule, having the same friends and activities, etc.) I think something genetic happened, and I had no control over that. I (found out later) there was some inflammatory disease like junior rheumatoid arthritis, rheumatic fever, etc. in my family.

I've learned to live with it (including sleepless nights in INTENSE pain at times, ice packs completely ineffective, unable to even breathe in some cases without more pain) primarily by managing it. So lifting weights and doing my own auto maintenance and carrying heavy furniture aren't things I do. I do walk to stay in reasonable shape, ensuring moderation.

And like you, I recently have changed my diet (much less sodium and more fresh foods) as my cardiovascular health long term, seems to need that.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I think that until you are in someone else's shoes and actually experiencing what they are experiencing medically, it's far easier to judge and dismiss than to understand.

I have had exactly ONE doctor who acted a bit sympathetic about my joint problem when he noticed the inflammation during an unrelated exam. When I mentioned it was "no big deal" (as all the doctors said, once they couldn't diagnose it), he stopped, placed his hand on my shoulder, looked me in the eye and said "It's not a big deal until YOU have it!" Looking at him a moment (he looked about 65), I thought "Uh huh. I'll bet YOU'VE been really sick and thus have some empathy."

So call me a coward or lazy, but IMO, I have good reason not to do my own auto maintenance, and I see it as more bad luck than a character flaw. (And no, I don't blame anyone else, and haven't asked for special treatment or special help).

[Hawkcreek]

I think that more than 70% of senior health problems are caused by laziness and poor diet choices -- all things that seniors CHOOSE. I have made many changes to my own diet because of information I have learned about cardiovascular health.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I think that until you are in someone else's shoes and actually experiencing what they are experiencing medically, it's far easier to judge and dismiss than to understand.

So call me a coward or lazy, but IMO, I have good reason not to do my own auto maintenance, and I see it as more bad luck than a character flaw. (And no, I don't blame anyone else, and haven't asked for special treatment or special help).

You may notice, I said 70% of senior health problems, not all. I do sympathize with anyone who has problems that can't be fixed by medicine or lifestyle changes. That is why I am a blooming, gun-loving liberal. I think the system should help those who need it, not exist only to help the elite.
So I understand that some people can't, or choose not to cause themselves pain by working on stuff, that others are trained to work on.
I do still believe, however, that 70% of seniors would be much better off if they engage in activities at which they start off being totally incompetent at. I know, I ended that sentence with a preposition. I suck at grammar.

[Outcast_Searcher]

So I understand that some people can't, or choose not to cause themselves pain by working on stuff, that others are trained to work on.

I do still believe, however, that 70% of seniors would be much better off if they engage in activities at which they start off being totally incompetent at. I know, I ended that sentence with a preposition. I suck at grammar.

OK. Fair enough.

I don't feel competent enough to gauge the percentage number. And obviously that decreases with age. (It could be 50% or maybe 80% for all I know.)

I actually don't mind causing myself a certain amount of temporary pain WHILE I'm working on something. What I don't have the mental toughness (or perhaps foolishness) any more to do is risk causing myself many hours or perhaps days of excruciating future pain by doing five minutes or an hour of strenuous labor. And I can't forecast when it's likely to occur. The last time I rotated my tires myself I was about 25. The aftermath of that felt like going to kill me at the time.

In my mind if people could just bother to spell, proof read, and especially use the correct word, I'd be deliriously happy at the state of conversation in internet fora. I suck at grammar too, but at least minor grammar issues don't completely obscure the content of what one is trying to say. (I know, I've just invited some English professor to yell at me).

[dohboi]

Ending a sentence with a preposition was a stupid rule since its (mis-)conception by the idiot Robert Louwth in 1762. It is finally falling out of the official prescriptive grammar books. According to legend, when his secretary scolded Churchill about this usage, he came back with: "That is the kind of nonsense up with which I will not put!"

Back somewhat on topic.

A retort I get from reasonably intelligent people who otherwise understand a lot about GW is that we need coal to provide electricity to the poor of the world. But the poor who are getting phones now for the first time aren't getting land lines. For similar reasons, it seems stupid to think that the best or even cheapest way to get electricity to the world's poorest, many of whom live in rural tropical areas, is to use a 19th century technology designed mostly for urban Europeans and Americans.

Large centralized energy is not generally going to be the best approach for most of these areas, for lots of reasons.

(Of course, there are lots of other assumptions going on with such objections, but that would take us off topic again.)

[Cid_Yama]

Ending a sentence with a preposition was a stupid rule since its (mis-)conception by the idiot Robert Louwth in 1762. It is finally falling out of the official prescriptive grammar books. According to legend, when his secretary scolded Churchill about this usage, he came back with: "That is the kind of nonsense up with which I will not put!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q-DUxHMLvg