[dohboi]

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ ... red-future

China tends to get more of the press, but India has surpassed China in coal imports and is building lots of coal plants and has plans for many more. It's hard to argue that India doesn't have a right to supply its people with electricity. But the strategy is also putting its people in peril, but short-term (New Delhi has some of the least breathable air in the world) and of course long term from the many depredations of CC.


The Grim Promise of India's Coal-Powered Future
India is adding 2.5 times as much coal capacity as the U.S. is closing. Some 1.3 billion people need electricity — and the earth needs a break

Burning coal is both a proven way to lift hundreds of millions of people out of poverty and the most dangerous fuel driving global warming. The United Nations has set itself the goal of reconciling these two things, and the results are shaky at best.

Energy ministries from more than 30 nations are meeting at the UN this week, at the Sustainable Development for All Forum, to debate how best to supply electricity to the 1.3 billion people who don't have it—at least 250 million of whom are Indians. The drive toward universal energy access is just one element of the UN's Sustainable Development Goals, a super-ambitious worldwide to-do list that the nations would like to finalize in New York in September, shortly before they meet again in Paris in December to finish a climate change treaty. That's the shaky part.

Despite aggressive investments in solar-powered electricity almost everywhere, erasing energy poverty also means more coal for developing countries, and India is the developing world's most ardent defender of its use.

[Tanada]

This is the way the climate changes, people, states and nations seeking short term gains for themselves and ignoring the consequences for everything living here with us. Neighbors as well as wildlife will suffer from our own actions and those of others.

[dohboi]

It's mostly states and nations making these choices.

If it were put to people in traditional fishing or farming villages and communities whether they wanted electricity, or they wanted a ecosystem that would continue to support their way of life as it had done for the the previous thousands of years of their existence, I'm betting that most of them would choose the latter.

[C8]

It's mostly states and nations making these choices.

If it were put to people in traditional fishing or farming villages and communities whether they wanted electricity, or they wanted a ecosystem that would continue to support their way of life as it had done for the the previous thousands of years of their existence, I'm betting that most of them would choose the latter.

That's not what I am seeing in polls, election results or shopping choices. The strongest movement in the world today is that everybody wants jobs and a better (higher energy) lifestyle. The environment is way down on the list- way down. Politicians and their public are in on this together for the most part. Heck, even the concept of global warming isn't known by many third world people.

I find that wherever you go people are pretty basic and want the same things- they like simple solutions that get them more goodies and aren't very intellectual. They easily follow whatever popular idea there is out there and are short term focused. This doesn't make them bad- just human.

Even within the Democratic Party the whole environmental movement is mostly dominated by white guys. Women, minorities and labor have about as much interest in it as Republicans- yes you can always dredge up exceptions and post picture of them but look at 99% of rallies or meetings of environmentalists and it becomes apparent that it is the interest of a particular ethnic group mainly. I think the demographic decline of whites will result in LESS of an interest in global warming in future years.

Most of the world just is into adapting to change.

[dohboi]

Ah, more uncited blather.

"Most Americans say they’re concerned about environmental issues"

"If you add the active participants (17 percent) and sympathizers (42 percent), you reach 59 percent, a healthy majority of Americans [are environmentalists]..."

http://ecowest.org/2013/05/30/gallup-fi ... entalists/

And on the more anecdotal side: http://www.theguardian.com/global-devel ... -303452465

In June, the Catholic church in the Philippines joined the One Million Against Coal Campaign, which aims to gather at least one million signatures nationwide in a bid to pressure the government to reverse the approval of dozens of coal power plants meant to address the country’s energy security concerns.

“We are strongly opposing coal energy because of its negative effects on the health of the people and the environment. Coal plants are the primary cause of global warming,” says Father Edwin Gariguez, executive director of Caritas Philippines National Secretariat for Social Action, the church’s social action arm.

The petition was announced days before Pope Francis called on the world to phase out the use of fossil fuels in his powerful 180-page encyclical on the environment. Gariguez told the Guardian the encyclical confirms they’re on the right track.

Oh, and thanks for airing your bias, prejudice and ignorance, but actual studies find:

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/0 ... opulation/

Minorities Care More About Climate Change

most Asian Americans hold particularly strong green values,” citing a 2012 survey of Asian-American political attitudes in the leadup to the presidential election, which found that 70 percent of Asian-Americans consider themselves environmentalist...

...89 percent of blacks supported the regulation of carbon dioxide as a pollutant, compared to 78 percent of whites

So do you have any other totally ignorant misinformation that you want to spew here, or are you done for now?

[dashster]

Ah, more uncited blather.

"Most Americans say they’re concerned about environmental issues"

"If you add the active participants (17 percent) and sympathizers (42 percent), you reach 59 percent, a healthy majority of Americans [are environmentalists]..."

You could have 7 billion sympathizers and the world would still burn massive amounts of coal and natural gas for electricity and be doing only a little bit with regard to renewables. And in fact, that's what we have.

Which of the environmental groups has active participants who take a position against population growth (immigration for the US)? If none, then they really aren't activists, just worriers.

In June, the Catholic church in the Philippines joined the One Million Against Coal Campaign, which aims to gather at least one million signatures nationwide in a bid to pressure the government to reverse the approval of dozens of coal power plants meant to address the country’s energy security concerns.

Nice to see the Catholic Church geting involved in non-religious issues that can help mankind. But they also need to be working to fight their population growth problems. They wouldn't need all those coal power plants if the population of the Phillipines was where it was in 1985 - 54 million - 54% of what it is just 30 years later.

It is great that the Pope is concerned with climate change - and population growth. Really great.

Minorities Care More About Climate Change

most Asian Americans hold particularly strong green values,” citing a 2012 survey of Asian-American political attitudes in the leadup to the presidential election, which found that 70 percent of Asian-Americans consider themselves environmentalist...

...89 percent of blacks supported the regulation of carbon dioxide as a pollutant, compared to 78 percent of whites

He was referring to people active in the environmental movement, not boxes being checked on a survey form.

[dohboi]

Please see the thread 'Population is not the (main) problem' as you seem to be suffering under a common delusion here.

I still see no citation, just more ignorant assumptions, bias and uninformed prejudice.

I'm not going to do the work for you anymore, but I'll give you a tip--look up 'evnironmental justice' and you'll be able to find lots of articles on and picture of the very vibrant movement of minorities against the over-sized environmental depredations in their neighborhoods.

[ROCKMAN]

dohboi - You can site all the NON-BINDING polls you want. But just I do with politicians I don't give a sh*t what the majority of the "public" says in polls. What I count is what noth groups EFFECTIVLY does to back up their words. And I don't see it today. Folks want they want: which is why CO2 levels are continuing to increase.

And fact regarding CO2 increases doesn't need a link, does it? LOL.

[dohboi]

"I don't give a sh*t"

Well, I guess that pretty much says it all!

Paraphrase: "You can cite all the well sourced science you want; I'm going to stick with my own set of entrenched prejudices and assumptions."

Well, good for you.

[ROCKMAN]

Assumptions??? So you don't beleive the reports that CO2 levels are rising? Hmm...would not have taken you for a denier. LOL

[dohboi]

??

These guys seem to be pretty intent on ending fossil-death-fuel extraction: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/element-magaz ... d=11497824

And then there's: http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolit ... mmigration

Latinos are deeply concerned about the environment and its potential impact on their families.

atinos place a high priority on the personal effects of climate change, particularly air and water pollution. Eighty-five percent of those surveyed said "reducing smog and air pollution is extremely or very important"; compared with 80 percent for comprehensive immigration reform.

[ROCKMAN]

dohboi - That's great: so many folks have had serious intents on abating global warming. Since your such a fanatic for links supporting positions I'm sure all our cohorts here would like to see those show how much those intentions have reduced GHG production over the last few years when so many have banded together reduce ff consumption. Thanks in advance.

Tread lightly buddy or some folks might wonder if you're a shill for the ff industry. LOL.

[C8]

Dohboi: I actually read quite a lot and do not make statements unless i see them backed up multiple times from different sources. Not only do polls show that Americans have a low interest in global warming- it shows that Americans don't even rank global warming high on their concerns EVEN COMPARED TO OTHER ENVIRONMENTAL ISSUES.

I choose polls that are done by major firms like Gallup, not interest groups, if you click on the link below of a poll in 2104 you will see global warming ranks in 8th place well behind even other environmental issues (it loses to water pollution by 20%!)

http://www.gallup.com/poll/168236/ameri ... rming.aspx

PRINCETON, NJ -- The United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change issued a new report this week warning of the existing and potentially severe adverse future impact of climate change, yet most Americans continue to express low levels of concern about the phenomenon. A little more than a third say they worry "a great deal" about climate change or about global warming, putting these concerns at the bottom of a list of eight environmental issues.

Ah, more uncited blather.

"Most Americans say they’re concerned about environmental issues"

"If you add the active participants (17 percent) and sympathizers (42 percent), you reach 59 percent, a healthy majority of Americans [are environmentalists]..."

http://ecowest.org/2013/05/30/gallup-fi ... entalists/

What the heck are you trying to prove with this poll you cite? It talks about hostility to environmentalists and doesn't even separate global warming out from "environmental issues". If this is your idea of citing support then is a truly awful. You attempt at supporting your point with a very unrelated poll that you take great liberties to interpret in your favor.

The poll I cite directly talks about the point I am making- I don't even have to explain it the connection is so clear a 4th grader can see it.

And on the more anecdotal side: http://www.theguardian.com/global-devel ... -303452465

In June, the Catholic church in the Philippines joined the One Million Against Coal Campaign, which aims to gather at least one million signatures nationwide in a bid to pressure the government to reverse the approval of dozens of coal power plants meant to address the country’s energy security concerns.

“We are strongly opposing coal energy because of its negative effects on the health of the people and the environment. Coal plants are the primary cause of global warming,” says Father Edwin Gariguez, executive director of Caritas Philippines National Secretariat for Social Action, the church’s social action arm.

The petition was announced days before Pope Francis called on the world to phase out the use of fossil fuels in his powerful 180-page encyclical on the environment. Gariguez told the Guardian the encyclical confirms they’re on the right track.

Anecdotes? Are you serious? That's your response? A weak, unrelated poll that doesn't eve talk about the issue we are discussing (global warming) and anecdotes?

Oh, and thanks for airing your bias, prejudice and ignorance, but actual studies find:

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2013/0 ... opulation/

Minorities Care More About Climate Change

most Asian Americans hold particularly strong green values,” citing a 2012 survey of Asian-American political attitudes in the leadup to the presidential election, which found that 70 percent of Asian-Americans consider themselves environmentalist...

...89 percent of blacks supported the regulation of carbon dioxide as a pollutant, compared to 78 percent of whites

You are seriously citing a study by two BERKLEY CALIFORNIA POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSORS as a legitimate poll? You are really desperate here. Berkley is the most liberal academic institution in America- you might as well cite a global warming study by the Petroleum Institute.

So, since you like liberal studies, I'll give you the results of a Yale report:

There are significant differences in views about the causes of global warming based on race and gender. Four in 10 blacks who think global warming is happening say it is caused mostly or entirely by human activities, compared with about 6 in 10 whites.

http://www.apnorc.org/projects/Pages/HT ... brief.aspx

Ah, more uncited blather.

Oh, and thanks for airing your bias, prejudice and ignorance, but actual studies find:

So do you have any other totally ignorant misinformation that you want to spew here, or are you done for now?

You will notice I attack your argument and evidence- but I do not take personal shots are you. The internet lets us be anonymous- but that just gives us an opportunity to reveal who we really are. Neither of us are going to change the world much by ourselves. Its not worth it to debate stuff if it changes you into an ugly person. I am starting to see why so many others here at PO.com refer to you in a disrespectful manner- why not just debate and leave the personal attacks out of your posts? It isn't worth it- just have fun and learn.

[dohboi]

So having finally gotten around to citing at least SOME source, C8 is now ready to boast about how wonderful his sources are, and about how silly others have been who have indeed actually been posting supporting evidence.

Well, I guess it's better to come late to the game than to miss it all together, but it's a bit like showing up in the seventh inning, get a bunt, then ridicule all the players who have been getting hits through the earlier six innings.

What you can't find is any poll that says most Americans (or probably any other nationality) want global warming.

Yes, there are lots of competing issues, and yes, the non-stop hate spewed from Faux and other right-wing orifices has poisoned the dialogue and, like everything else, polarized the issue.

But the fact remains that people don't want GW, and they would be perfectly happy to get electricity and other forms of energy from sources that don't (or only minimally) contribute to it.

Now, do you have anything to say specifically about India and Coal, the putative topic of this thread?

[ROCKMAN]

Wow guys! Lots of interesting comments. But lets get back to the question I threw out: with all the polls claiming great concerns where are the studies that show these feelings being converted to significant actions. Again words and opinions matter. But actions add so much more that's truly important.

[Tanada]

KOLKATA: Companies including power generators that depend heavily on e-auction coal should brace for a further rise in costs as international prices are slated to exert upward pressure on domestic spot market for the next three months before subsiding, experts have predicted.

In the domestic market, spot e-auction prices have already crossed Rs 1,650 per tonne at recent auctions and analysts believe it will cross Rs 1,700 by early January beyond which it will rise further over the next three months before softening.

Between now and March next year, Coal IndiaBSE -0.96 % is likely to offer an additional 30 million tonnes of coal, ending the financial year with a total of 100 million tonnes.

"Despite a likely revival of production by Coal India in the second half of the fiscal, outlook on domestic coal prices in the near term remains positive," said Jayanta Roy, senior vice-president and group head-corporate sector ratings at ICRA.

"Incremental demand from sponge iron players on the back of better industry prospects would support coal prices in the e-auction market." Deepak Kanna, managing director at S&P Global Platts, said rains in Indonesia continue to impact international supply and vessel loading schedules amid winter-restocking demand from China.

LINK

[Subjectivist]

I watched this video report, 20 minutes, and I am more convinced than ever that we as a species are going to burn every lump of coal we can tear out of the Earth. For those pieces too deep for mining we will frack an burn in situ like the Russians are already doing in a couple places.

https://youtu.be/ZXdaa2dSOCM

[Subjectivist]

NEW DELHI: The power ministry is likely to ask state power distribution companies to accept revised tariffs that power plants have quoted to win coal contracts, without waiting for clearance from the sector regulator.

This is expected to help fuel-starved power plants quickly get coal supply, for which they have been waiting since September when the auctions were held.

"The regulator's approval is a long-drawn process. Since it was a transparent online reverse auction approved by the Union Cabinet, we are planning to ask the states to accept the revised tariffs while the regulatory process is underway, subject to its approval. This will ensure that the coal supplies to these projects are expedited," a senior government official said.

Coal IndiaBSE 1.33 %'s board last week approved the winning bids of a bunch of power producers including Adani PowerBSE 0.76 %, GMR Energy and KSK EnergyBSE 4.99 % that quoted the highest discount in electricity tariffs to receive coal from the state-run miner.

But for supplies to commence, power plants have to amend their power purchase agreements (PPAs) with distribution companies to factor in the discount in tariffs offered during the auction and get the regulator's approval for that.

Coal India has to issue letters of intent to the power companies within 15 days of the conclusion of the auction and the power companies have 45 days to amend the PPAs and get approval of the Electricity Regulatory Commission. Coal India will have 30 days to convert the letters of intent into fuel supply agreements.

While Coal India's board approved the winning bids, it has referred the process for final vetting to an agency in Hyderabad.

Though it is a normal practice for the coal ministry to consult the agency, power companies said any delay in starting supplies could lead some fuel-starved plants to shut down.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 079106.cms

[Tanada]

In the last 15 years India's coal consumption has doubled to right around 400MM/toe. Conversion factor is 1:1.43 gives 572MM/tons of coal consumption in 2016 with a trend line clear going up at a pretty significant rate.