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Pollution Pt. 2

Re: Dad, Why is the river so polluted??

Unread postby americandream » Thu 12 Nov 2009, 23:59:45

I'm not sure what the answer is given the overwhelming conditioning kids undergo from the cradle. No one wants to hear bad news in the midst of an interminable shopping spree, and can we blame them when they are daily being assailed with the virtues of spending. I am sure however, that when humankind stands on the brink and knows that it stands there, it will hasten to change.
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Re: Dad, Why is the river so polluted??

Unread postby hardtootell-2 » Fri 13 Nov 2009, 00:43:31

As for behavior change-
I know it probably won't make a bit of difference in the grand scheme of things but after that meal I have sworn off wild salmon. I just cannot bring myself to eat it, knowing what I know historically and ecologically
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Re: Dad, Why is the river so polluted??

Unread postby pablonite » Mon 16 Nov 2009, 11:09:05

Repent wrote:I don't think she is old enough to understand enough about history, politics, war, and economics for me to even begin to explain the full scale of the global disaster in progress.

Heh, I spent a few days near the Red River this spring and holy shiat! I think a kid would enjoy just watching the power of melt water without listening to depressing musings about a "?global disaster in progress?"

Just think, you could be living in Regina, a city built for the railroad that doesn't even have a river!

Hopefully your child will grow up with a very different understanding about history, politics, war and economics. History is rewritten everyday anyway, politics is nothing more than a left right paradigm box for your brain to keep you playing war and economics is actually the most ingenious form of slavery ever created. Muhaha.
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Pollution Pt. 2

Unread postby Kristen » Wed 25 Nov 2009, 14:08:31

Does anyone suggest a way to clean it up? I have a gut feeling its far too late as well, but if we can clean it up at a faster rate then we make it, we could start to slowly trim the edges off the island (Continent) a little bit.
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Re: Exponential Growth and our Crap WARNING: INFORMATION DENSE

Unread postby TWilliam » Thu 26 Nov 2009, 19:23:41

Kristen wrote:Does anyone suggest a way to clean it up? I have a gut feeling its far too late as well, but if we can clean it up at a faster rate then we make it, we could start to slowly trim the edges off the island (Continent) a little bit.

The question is, "HOW?"

As someone wisely noted, "there is no such thing as 'away'" (as in 'throw away'). Where exactly does one 'clean it up' TO?
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Re: Exponential Growth and our Crap WARNING: INFORMATION DENSE

Unread postby Ludi » Thu 26 Nov 2009, 20:08:47

Virtually all materials, except radioactives and heavy metals, can be reduced to their component molecules one way or another ("refined"). Nobody bothers to do that much, though, because it can be expensive and difficult.
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Re: Exponential Growth and our Crap WARNING: INFORMATION DENSE

Unread postby threadbear » Fri 27 Nov 2009, 21:23:01

I think in the near future a concerted effort is going to be made to go back to using glass more, and to outlaw plastics that don't automatically bio-degrade. Horrible what has already happened though. Beggars belief that both industry and the people they serve are so stupid. It really is an Idiocracy world.
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Re: Exponential Growth and our Crap WARNING: INFORMATION DENSE

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 28 Nov 2009, 10:42:11

threadbear wrote:I think in the near future a concerted effort is going to be made to go back to using glass more, and to outlaw plastics that don't automatically bio-degrade.



Unfortunately, plastics don't really "biodegrade" in a good way - they break down into tiny particles that kill the smallest creatures - and the biosphere depends on these tiny creatures. :( Plastics also contain endocrine disruptors.

http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/
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Re: Exponential Growth and our Crap WARNING: INFORMATION DENSE

Unread postby TWilliam » Sat 28 Nov 2009, 13:20:53

Ludi wrote:Virtually all materials, except radioactives and heavy metals, can be reduced to their component molecules one way or another ("refined"). Nobody bothers to do that much, though, because it can be expensive and difficult.

They can be, yes. The problem tho' is that it generally requires even more energy input (and consequently more pollution) than extracting and utilizing the original raw materials to begin with. This is the complaint I see again and again from virtually all recycling efforts. Of course they usually couch it in terms of 'non-profitability', but that's really what they're saying...
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Re: Exponential Growth and our Crap WARNING: INFORMATION DENSE

Unread postby Ludi » Sat 28 Nov 2009, 13:34:57

TWilliam wrote: The problem tho' is that it generally requires even more energy input (and consequently more pollution) than extracting and utilizing the original raw materials to begin with.



Yep, we've gotten ourselves into a hell of a mess.
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Re: Exponential Growth and our Crap WARNING: INFORMATION DENSE

Unread postby TWilliam » Sat 28 Nov 2009, 13:46:01

Ludi wrote:Yep, we've gotten ourselves into a hell of a mess.

No doubt. Glad I won't be around for the worst of the aftermath...
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Re: Exponential Growth and our Crap WARNING: INFORMATION DENSE

Unread postby mos6507 » Sat 28 Nov 2009, 13:48:21

TWilliam wrote:They can be, yes. The problem tho' is that it generally requires even more energy input (and consequently more pollution) than extracting and utilizing the original raw materials to begin with. This is the complaint I see again and again from virtually all recycling efforts. Of course they usually couch it in terms of 'non-profitability', but that's really what they're saying...


But the point is that pollution and efficiency are two different things and in order to be as sustainable as possible you need to maximize efficiency but not make the planet look like Wall-E. I mean, minimizing CO2 emissions from manufacturing goods is one thing, but turning the planet into a trash dump isn't going to serve us well either.

The whole Penn & Teller BS schtick, by arguing only one side of the issue, fails to see the bigger truth that industrial civilization probably can't be sustainable at all. And if that's the case, then it ends in a crash sooner or later. It's pretty easy to argue for BAU when you only look a few years into the future with the mind of an economist.
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Re: Exponential Growth and our Crap WARNING: INFORMATION DENSE

Unread postby TWilliam » Sat 28 Nov 2009, 14:07:25

mos6507 wrote:But the point is that pollution and efficiency are two different things and in order to be as sustainable as possible you need to maximize efficiency but not make the planet look like Wall-E. I mean, minimizing CO2 emissions from manufacturing goods is one thing, but turning the planet into a trash dump isn't going to serve us well either.

The whole Penn & Teller BS schtick, by arguing only one side of the issue, fails to see the bigger truth that industrial civilization probably can't be sustainable at all. And if that's the case, then it ends in a crash sooner or later. It's pretty easy to argue for BAU when you only look a few years into the future with the mind of an economist.

The trouble with efficiency is that it tends to head us off along Jeavons' road, rather than toward some sort of sensible status quo. Theory is one thing, but human behavior apparently rarely pays much attention to theory.

As far as CO2 vs. Wall-E, I'm not sure I see much difference between a global garbage dump and a global desert. Neither one is particularly appealing. Bottom line IMO is that we need far fewer people, with far less greed in their souls...

(BTW I wasn't knocking recycling. Just noting the reality of it's poor EROEI... )
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Re: Exponential Growth and our Crap WARNING: INFORMATION DENSE

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 29 Nov 2009, 19:48:52

Here's a bit of firsthand info on the floating Pacific garbage dump

I read with interest your May Loose Lips item about Nike shoes washing ashore along the west coast. I've been backpacking the central Oregon coast for 20 years, and have found some interesting flotsam and jetsam. For example, about 10 years ago, we came across some of the Nike shoes you wrote about in the article. The local beachcombers cashed in on this true example of trickle down economics, for all up and down Highway 101, just about every house had a Nike yard sale going on. Over the years, we've also found large quantities of new paint brushes, plastic hard hats, and hockey equipment. Three weeks ago we began to find the Nike cross trainers shoes that you mentioned. The North Pacific is a nasty place to be most of the year, and even more so with all of those loose containers bobbing around out there.

Incidently, you would never know it was illegal to dump plastic into our oceans, for the amount of trash at the high tide line is sometimes staggering. I know that some of this can be attributed to the currents that concentrate everything in the North Pacific and then sweep it down the Oregon, Washington and California coasts, but one walk along this stretch of wilderness coastline would make most people think twice about tossing even the least little thing over the side. Plastic food packaging of all kinds, liquor bottles from all around the Pacific rim, and flipflops of every size and color make quite a disgusting mess.

http://www.latitude38.com/letters/200107.htm "Trickle Down Economics"
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Re: Canada quietly asks EPA to weaken anti-pollution measures

Unread postby Cabrone » Mon 07 Dec 2009, 06:05:02

Vogelzang wrote:There will be plenty of oil coming from Canada for years to come. Enjoy!


Only if you think this is enjoyable.....looks more like a vision of hell to me.

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Somehow I don't think this picture will be used by the Canadian tourist board anytime soon.
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Re: Canada quietly asks EPA to weaken anti-pollution measures

Unread postby mos6507 » Mon 07 Dec 2009, 15:16:17

Reminds me of this:


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Re: Canada quietly asks EPA to weaken anti-pollution measures

Unread postby WildRose » Tue 08 Dec 2009, 11:37:19

Cabrone wrote:With their tar sands and measures like this is Canada becoming the dirty man of North America?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canada-quietly-asks-epa-to-weaken-anti-pollution-measures/article1327805/?


From the article you supplied,

"The (Canadian) embassy didn't dispute the EPA's health findings, but expressed concerns about the economic impact of the measures."

The bottom line is what it's all about. The above ties in well with the recent comments around this board about our growth-based culture. If the industry/company sees a profit we'll go ahead with it, no matter what the other consequences are, which is why terribly polluting practices like that described in the article, or the environmental devastation of the tar sands is allowed to continue. The little people are not vocal enough!

This was never more clear to me than recently when I took my eldest son, who now has his first job, to the bank to establish a chequings account/debit card. One of the first things offered him was a credit card, so that he can do his part in growing consumer spending and bank profits.
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Re: Canada quietly asks EPA to weaken anti-pollution measures

Unread postby Serial_Worrier » Mon 28 Dec 2009, 17:19:02

Cabrone wrote:
Vogelzang wrote:There will be plenty of oil coming from Canada for years to come. Enjoy!


Only if you think this is enjoyable.....looks more like a vision of hell to me.

Image

Somehow I don't think this picture will be used by the Canadian tourist board anytime soon.


It's not like anyone lives near a coal-fired power plant. You don't have a god given right to have every acre of the earth in a pristine state. That is not a human right. It IS a human right not to freeze to death in winter.
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Re: Canada quietly asks EPA to weaken anti-pollution measures

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 28 Dec 2009, 18:31:09

Serial_Worrier wrote:It's not like anyone lives near a coal-fired power plant. You don't have a god given right to have every acre of the earth in a pristine state. That is not a human right. It IS a human right not to freeze to death in winter.


Define near, my house is two miles upwind of a 3 GWe coal burning plant and has been since before I joined this website.
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Re: Canada quietly asks EPA to weaken anti-pollution measures

Unread postby Pretorian » Mon 28 Dec 2009, 19:12:00

Serial_Worrier wrote:
It's not like anyone lives near a coal-fired power plant. You don't have a god given right to have every acre of the earth in a pristine state. That is not a human right. It IS a human right not to freeze to death in winter.


But is it a god given right? Cause I frankly would prefer you to freeze to death vs extra-mercury in my fish and water.
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