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Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Sat 22 Jul 2017, 19:55:56
by Newfie
KaiserJeep wrote:Newfie, 7.5+ billion humans is not "failing massively". It is somewhere between "pretty good" and "massively successfull".


That is your opinion. Which you are entitled to. I view it entirely differently, which is my opinion.

Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Sat 22 Jul 2017, 19:57:31
by Newfie
Onlooker,

I was discussing what we SHOULD do.

You are discussing what we WILL do. And I agree with your prediction 100%. And I think we will just muck it up all the more.

Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Fri 04 Aug 2017, 19:13:49
by Plantagenet
China starts large geoengineering research program

china-builds-one-of-the-worlds-largest-geoengineering-research-programs

Good to know China is on the job. If global warming starts to cause real problems in China, they'll be ready to take steps to help China, even if it screws other parts of the world.

Cheers!

Image

Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Fri 04 Aug 2017, 19:30:56
by Newfie
Then we will retaliate, helping the USA and hurting China.

Loose Loose.

Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Sat 05 Aug 2017, 13:29:02
by dissident
The most feasible scheme of injecting SO2 into the stratosphere (at 30 km in the tropics) has he downside that there will be major ozone loss. The sulfate resulting from the SO2 enables heterogeneous chemistry pathways that destroy ozone.

Geoengineering is not a solution. It is a whack the mole symptom "treatment" that generates other problems and at the same time only hides the CO2 problem. That is, you can engineer some radiative offset but the moment you stop the procedure the system gets walloped by massive warming from the greenhouse gases that you did not remove.

Gigantic CO2 scrubbers from some sci-fi story is the only geoengineering that would be worthwhile. Too bad that there is little evidence for such technology being around the corner.

Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Sat 05 Aug 2017, 16:38:14
by dohboi
Nicely put.

The great misfortune is that your wisdom is not widely shared, so it seems pretty certain that some nation, corporation or just a rich fool will implement some such major scheme, almost certainly with dire consequences for some part of the planet's life and the systems that support it.

Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Sun 06 Aug 2017, 12:17:28
by onlooker
And yet we have these boasts of 7 geoengineering solutions to climate change. Perhaps, other posters can explain why none of them are likely to work. Or why one or more could work
https://www.treehugger.com/natural-scie ... hange.html

Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Sun 06 Aug 2017, 12:26:16
by dissident
onlooker wrote:And yet we have these boasts of 7 geoengineering solutions to climate change. Perhaps, other posters can explain why none of them are likely to work. Or why one or more could work
https://www.treehugger.com/natural-scie ... hange.html


The CO2 scrubber mentioned takes out 1 ton per day and hundreds of millions of them would have to be deployed. Until these devices (which are conceptually trivial) can be scaled to terraforming levels (not so trivial) they are irrelevant.

Iron fertilization only works where there is iron deficiency. That is, arbitrary amounts of positive results cannot be obtained on demand. I have not seen any assessments iron fertilization induced CO2 removal potential around the globe. So this is more clutching at straws.

Reforestation is a good thing, but tell me how realistic is it given that humanity is full bore deforesting the planet.

Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Sun 06 Aug 2017, 12:33:54
by onlooker
Thanks Dissident for interjection of a sober realistic assessment

Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Sun 06 Aug 2017, 13:47:04
by farmlad
Carbon sequestration is done so much more effeciently by biological processes then by machines and chemicals. Just eliminating the millions of hectares of prescribed burning of grassland and savanahs on this planet and instead treating those areas with prescribed high density grazings would sequester millions of tons of carbon every single year into those soils. This would start numerous beneficial processes such as increasing water infiltration and water holding capacity of these soils. It would reduce evaporation rates as well and so increase the amount of living organizims per hectare.

Pie in the sky? Not at all. There are now more than 1 million hectares being managed holistically. https://holisticmanagement.org/

Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Sun 06 Aug 2017, 15:36:56
by baha
I like Biochar...it's simple, effective, and natural.

It is something I can do myself. All I have to do is start a fire in a bucket and then choke it out. Spread the biochar in the garden and it's a win/win scenario.

I've been meaning to try this but it's way down the list :) It would be a good way to get rid of old pallets, except for the nails. But I'm going to need a 55 gallon steel bucket. 200 gallon would be better :) I like big fires.

Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Sun 06 Aug 2017, 16:17:23
by onlooker
baha wrote:I like Biochar...it's simple, effective, and natural.

It is something I can do myself. All I have to do is start a fire in a bucket and then choke it out. Spread the biochar in the garden and it's a win/win scenario.

I've been meaning to try this but it's way down the list :) It would be a good way to get rid of old pallets, except for the nails. But I'm going to need a 55 gallon steel bucket. 200 gallon would be better :) I like big fires.

I am wondering how much it can be scaled up to really help with CO2

Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Sun 06 Aug 2017, 17:58:06
by baha
From your article...

" Sounds easy, but will it actually do any good? A recent study on different geoengineering methods said that, combined with reforestation, biochar has greater short term cooling potential than ocean fertilization, and that it was a "win-win for soil fertility as well as the climate." What's more, James Lovelock calls biochar our one last chance to save ourselves from devastating temperature increases."

It is a great short term fix that can make a difference while we're coming up with other answers. It is a great business opportunity. Sell a home kit to turn old yard cuttings into biochar...anyone interested? Not me, I do solar :)

Wait...what about concentrated solar used to char and burn everything in sight. I have a 40" fresnel lens that I used to cook a grilled cheese sandwich once. Just once, it didn't work too good. But I'll look into it...

Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Sun 06 Aug 2017, 18:19:04
by baha
Of course, lots of people have already thought of that.
http://www.backyardbiochar.net/

And you can buy all the bags of it you want...I have an old 100 gallon steel solar storage tank that has rust holes in the bottom. (I never throw anything solar away) I bet I can use that. You got me thinking...

Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Sun 06 Aug 2017, 22:00:08
by dohboi
sooo, farmguy prefers high intensity grazing to burning, yet bah wants biochar, which is what you get from burning...

do they care to duke it out?

as far as i've seen, the grazing folks have some fairly...dubious proponents.

but i'm all for turning over the plains to the bison and their natural predators, and maybe allow some Indian tribes to return to their ancient customs of culling bison once in a while. :)

Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Mon 07 Aug 2017, 08:16:53
by Tanada
dohboi wrote:sooo, farmguy prefers high intensity grazing to burning, yet bah wants biochar, which is what you get from burning...

do they care to duke it out?

as far as i've seen, the grazing folks have some fairly...dubious proponents.

but i'm all for turning over the plains to the bison and their natural predators, and maybe allow some Indian tribes to return to their ancient customs of culling bison once in a while. :)


You are suffering a problem I have seen many people express. That is, you discount the science because you do not like the source. I strive to look at the science objectively to see if it is sound, because making decisions based on the politics of who promotes the science is just advocacy dressed up with buzz words to promote the thing you advocate.

I despise many of the hypocrites who jumped on the global warming bandwagon, but I get past that by looking at the science. Others should strive to do the same. I think plans to attempt geoengineering are a very bad idea because humans are too arrogant and the system far too complex to have success without many negative side effects that in my estimation have a great risk of exceeding the rewards.

Re: The Geoengineering Thread Pt. 2

Unread postPosted: Mon 07 Aug 2017, 14:22:58
by dohboi
??

I was just pointing out that two poster proposed two approaches that seemed to contradict each other, yet they didn't seem to notice it. I was hoping they would unpack their arguments a bit more to see if they could be resolved.

It is true that Allan Savory's past includes some rather...unsavory episodes :) ...

But his 'science' is even worse : http://www.slate.com/articles/life/food ... _have.html

But maybe it is you who want so hard to believe things that confirm your own values that you dismiss actual scientific review of a sleezy promoters claims??

Here's the link to the scientific review, in case you had any trouble finding it in that article:

https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index ... 1560/10833

The take away:

Our review of findings from African studies on short-duration grazing including the "Charter Trials" shows a very high similarity to those from North America sum-marized by Holechek et al. (2000).

We could find no definite evidence in the African studies that short-duration grazing involving 5 or more paddocks will accelerate plant succession compared to more simple grazing systems...


If you think that everyone else is blinded by prejudice, but you alone of all humanity seem to have escaped its clutches, please see my comment on your statement in the other thread.