Peak Oil News and Message Boards

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWInyaMWBY8

Pretty basic but IMO worth the watching.

What always confuses me about Hansen is why he can't seem to either understand or accept that his proposed fee&payout is the most extreme type of lefty tax policy possible. It is straight up income redistribution. He says it doesn't "increase the size of government"; but that's like saying the portion of income tax used to pay out welfare, medicaid, food stamps, housing assistance, etc aren't part of the government.

If government force would be used in response to a refusal to pay, it is a tax; and that tax is part of the government's total budget. It doesn't matter one whit whether a tax is ear marked for a particular distribution or not; it is still a *VAST* increase in the size of government. As such, it could never make it through congress unless an absolutely huge political change happened, with both the existing Democrat and Republican parties being essentially replaced (even if they kept their namesakes).

If you want a realistic, enactable carbon tax (as I do), that does not increase the size of government (as I also would prefer); you REDUCE an existing tax by the same amount that the new tax brings in. THAT would be keeping the government the same size. My personal preference is probably TOO disruptive, as I'd like to completely abolish the income tax/estate/capital gains/and-or/gift taxes, and replace them with a VAT & Carbon Tax, with a zero change in projected revenue. But you could come up with a compromise where a VAT & Carbon Tax would be used to reduce the income tax rates, or raise the personal exemption to make it zero out on the revenue side, you could even have the rate or exemption shift benchmarked against the revenue brought in by the previous year's VAT/CT.

hi agent

australia is introducing a co2 tax on july 1 this year @ $23 / tonne emissions

the govt is increasing the income tax free threshold to $18,000

the tax will be paid by the largest 500 emitting companies

the tax is scheduled to change to an emissions trading scheme in 2015

Yes, I am aware of what one of the largest coal exporting countries in the world is doing with regard to domestic carbon taxes and trading.

Its really not too bad of a plan, but the bite is much too mild, and much too isolated. Everyone needs to be paying, and paying big. everyone needs to think, "dang this tax is a b**** every time they turn the key in the car, and every time they turn the AC on in the house." Short of that, there will be very modest reductions in carbon consumption amongst the public.

true agent

but it has taken 10 + years to get this done

the murdoch press is constantly trying to do everything they can to stop it

it is a first step

if the right wing opposition is elected at the next general election they have pledged to ( try) to revoke the legislation

they are puppets of rupert murdoch

kiwichick wrote:hi agent

australia is introducing a co2 tax on july 1 this year @ $23 / tonne emissions

the govt is increasing the income tax free threshold to $18,000

the tax will be paid by the largest 500 emitting companies

the tax is scheduled to change to an emissions trading scheme in 2015

It is an illusion to believe it will be paid by the companies. They pass all costs directly to whomever purchases what they make. Steel mills pass it to the companies that use steel, eletric companies pass it to everyone who uses current. Pick any company you want, they don't eat the expense, they pass it on.

This also means companies in any country not paying the carbon tax now have a price advantage to undercut the companies paying the tax.

You resurrect this thread after 5 years and 2 months, and you talk about a carbon tax that was enacted, failed spectacularly to limit emissions, and then was repealed, in the future tense?

Read all about the failure, then we'll talk: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_pricing_in_Australia

LOL

I like Dr. Hansen as a scientist, but as an economist he stinks on ice.

Tanada wrote:I like Dr. Hansen as a scientist, but as an economist he stinks on ice.

Yep, it seems the whole carbon trading venture is just a ploy to not do much of anything to limit carbon emissions

Like a certain health care plan, it was, iirc, dreamed up by Republicans, but then when Dems started to get on board, it was suddenly reviled as the devil's spawn.

What is called for now, of course, is straightforward rationing. But that is not likely to happen under the current one-party system.

dohboi wrote:Like a certain health care plan, it was, iirc, dreamed up by Republicans, but then when Dems started to get on board, it was suddenly reviled as the devil's spawn.

????

A group of leading Rs proposed just last February that the US institute a carbon tax.

republican-group-calls-for-carbon-tax

Thats more support for a carbon tax then I've heard from any Dems in, oh, 8 years or so.

dohboi wrote:Like a certain health care plan, it was, iirc, dreamed up by Republicans, but then when Dems started to get on board, it was suddenly reviled as the devil's spawn.

What is called for now, of course, is straightforward rationing. But that is not likely to happen under the current one-party system.

A place with multiple political parties which must form a coalition to govern is different from the USA's two-party system.

The carbon tax being a way to continue to pollute is a familiar concept, and the most common criticism of such tax policies. Like most of the efforts of governments, the actual effect of the legislation is the opposite of the stated goal.

Plant, yes, that was a bunch of old-school, out of office Repubs going back to earlier proposals that earlier Repubs had turned down.

And what happened to that proposal now, when every branch of gov is now controlled by Repubs?

It is pretty impossible to blame the other party now for anything, so you have to accept that the current Repub party has zero interest in anything like that plan, or any other, besides burn it all.

‘A Conservative Climate Solution’: Republican Group Calls for Carbon Tax

A group of Republican elder statesmen is calling for a tax on carbon emissions to fight climate change.

The group, led by former Secretary of State James A. Baker III, with former Secretary of State George P. Shultz and Henry M. Paulson Jr., a former secretary of the Treasury, says that taxing carbon pollution produced by burning fossil fuels is “a conservative climate solution” based on free-market principles.

Mr. Baker is scheduled to meet on Wednesday with White House officials, including Vice President Mike Pence, Jared Kushner, the senior adviser to the president, and Gary D. Cohn, director of the National Economic Council, as well as Ivanka Trump.

In an interview, Mr. Baker said that the plan followed classic conservative principles of free-market solutions and small government. He suggested that even former President Ronald Reagan would have blessed the plan: “I’m not at all sure the Gipper wouldn’t have been very happy with this.” He said he had no idea how the proposal would be received by the current White House or Congress.

dated FEB. 7, 2017

Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell and Donald trump's reaction to said plan since then;

PS: none of the three even met with the group of repugs proposing the plan either, just underlings.

(crickets)

But it does seem teh donald has his plate full seeing just how badly he can screw up governing,
so maybe he hasn't had the time to look at the one page memo on the plan
he would ask for.

Let us NOT turn this into yet another political diatribe thread. Come on people there is more to life than the politics of the day. AGW was caused by all of us, not one party or the other, and this extends to every country now occupying the planet. Those with the least emissions are those with the least access, not those with the least desire to consume fossil fuels.

Dang, by Dr Hansen's own measure, it's far too late as far as reducing the impact of Climate Change....so, as far as discussing policy, it's a mute point.
PS since Dr Hansen went before Congress in 1989..humans increased their numbers by 1.5 to 2 BILLION...and still adding 250,000 per DAY.
The point in Dr Hansen book, Storms...., was we HAVE to reduce our numbers..
We didn't and won't voluntarily.... NEXT

Here's a nice juicy bone for Planty!

Hansen quote:

“There was one serious conscientious objector in the Bush/Obama era – Bidder 70, who disrupted an auction of public property for fossil fuel exploitation. The science shows that we can’t burn those additional fossil fuels, unless young people extract the CO2 from the air (unlikely) or suffer the consequences. President Obama let Bidder 70 go to jail and cook there for a couple of years – sending a message. The Clean Power Plan will be Obama’s legacy – a tiny short-term dent that at best encouraged widened use of natural gas. Some legacy! Obama blew the enormous opportunities that he had, both early and late.”

http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/mailings/ ... Dakota.pdf