Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Sat 28 Dec 2013, 02:39:25

Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?
Ford is going to announce in a couple of weeks that the next F-150 will have a body made mostly of aluminum instead of steel in a bid to save weight, and thus gas ...
Is your local autobody shop ready to fix dents and fender-benders in these?
"I could go on, but let’s veer off in another direction instead."

– The Archdruid
User avatar
Keith_McClary
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 7273
Joined: Wed 21 Jul 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Suburban tar sands

Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby dolanbaker » Sat 28 Dec 2013, 05:30:34

Keith_McClary wrote:Will aluminium Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?
Ford is going to announce in a couple of weeks that the next F-150 will have a body made mostly of aluminium instead of steel in a bid to save weight, and thus gas ...
Is your local autobody shop ready to fix dents and fender-benders in these?

Aluminium soldering, no big deal.
Ronald Coase, Nobel Economic Sciences, said in 1991 “If we torture the data long enough, it will confess.”
User avatar
dolanbaker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3367
Joined: Wed 14 Apr 2010, 09:38:47
Location: Éire

Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby Pops » Sat 28 Dec 2013, 06:26:49

I don't know a lot about body work but I'm gonna guess most repairs are bolt on replacements not hammer work by the hour.
If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide.
-- Abraham Lincoln
User avatar
Pops
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 17642
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 03:00:00
Location: QuikSac for a 6-Pac

Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby Scrub Puller » Sat 28 Dec 2013, 06:31:45

Yair . . . dolanbaker

Aluminium soldering, no big deal.


Would you care to elaborate on that quote? I assume you haven't taken a Landrover in for panel work recently?

I should mention that Land/Rangerovers have always had ally panels. Repairs can be a major issue, and probably the reworking of dings and damage would be beyond the capability the average body shop.

Cheers.
Scrub Puller
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 296
Joined: Sun 07 Apr 2013, 12:20:59

Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby dolanbaker » Sat 28 Dec 2013, 06:38:04

Scrub Puller wrote:Yair . . . dolanbaker

Aluminium soldering, no big deal.


Would you care to elaborate on that quote? I assume you haven't taken a Landrover in for panel work recently?

I should mention that Land/Rangerovers have always had ally panels. Repairs can be a major issue, and probably the reworking of dings and damage would be beyond the capability the average body shop.

Cheers.

Remove the dented panel and solder a new on in its place, I am aware that ally panels are near impossible to straighten out that's why I said aluminium soldering will sort it.

http://youtu.be/rWFuZukKxCM
Ronald Coase, Nobel Economic Sciences, said in 1991 “If we torture the data long enough, it will confess.”
User avatar
dolanbaker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3367
Joined: Wed 14 Apr 2010, 09:38:47
Location: Éire

Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby vision-master » Sat 28 Dec 2013, 09:31:12

I am NOT a fan of Ford Motors. For one, the Ram has way more power and gets better mileage. I mean 390 hp from a 5.7 is very cool, also they don't break. Ford is still Fix Or Repair Daily...
vision-master
 

Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby AgentR11 » Sun 29 Dec 2013, 00:32:15

Its an F-150....

Why would you UNdent it? Its for working, pushing, pulling, bumping, nudging, dragging.... Dents are expected. As long as the bed stays on and the tailgate more-or-less closes....

Or am I missing something?
Yes we are, as we are,
And so shall we remain,
Until the end.
User avatar
AgentR11
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 6011
Joined: Tue 22 Mar 2011, 08:15:51
Location: East Texas

Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby Loki » Sun 29 Dec 2013, 01:26:17

AgentR11 wrote:Its an F-150....

Why would you UNdent it? Its for working, pushing, pulling, bumping, nudging, dragging.... Dents are expected. As long as the bed stays on and the tailgate more-or-less closes....

Or am I missing something?

Agreed, who cares about dents in a truck.

More importantly, what is the mileage?
A garden will make your rations go further.
User avatar
Loki
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 3509
Joined: Sat 08 Apr 2006, 02:00:00
Location: Oregon

Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 29 Dec 2013, 08:04:31

I thought we had discussed this years ago but I can't find any old posts on the subject so I will repeat myself.

The modern SUV/Pick Up truck buyer in America isn't looking for a work truck, if they were the darn things would not overpopulate our roads. When I was growing up a pick up was a general labor work vehicle used mostly by farmers and construction industry types to haul stuff from point A to point B. Starting about 25 years ago a 4X4 truck went from being something you needed in rough terrain to accomplish the above to being a 'Sport Utility Vehicle'. While this was nifty for the automotive industry it totally destroyed the mental image for the average American that a truck was a work vehicle you bought because you needed it, and it also pretty much tripled the price of these things after inflation. Heck Ford even put out a Lincoln pick up truck with a leather interior and all the options, for all I know they still do!

The younger generation of truck buyers are terrified of dents, dings, scratches and so on and so forth. You are talking about their beautiful SUV, their pride and joy, their way of showing off for the girls/guys. For that crowd the Aluminum F-150 is a disaster because its exterior will be more costly to maintain. For the pick up truck commuter crowd the same thing takes place to a lesser extent, they want the better fuel economy but they don't want dents and dings marring up their pretty to look at driveway ornament.

I see two possibilities, the Aluminum F-150 catches on with the construction/farm crowd and has a minor success, or it dies a quick and painful death because Dealerships will not be able to sell them at the price they are offered at.

For myself if I could pick up a ten year old solid truck to keep in reserve in case I ever needed it at a good price I would, but prices on decade old trucks are still too high unless you actually need it for your job.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 13656
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 02:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 29 Dec 2013, 13:26:34

The F-150 has been the best selling vehicle in the USA for 17 years straight. Then in May 2013, it was surpassed by four more fuel-efficient vehicles. Now it is rated fifth in sales following Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Toyota Camry, and Honda Accord.

The aluminum F-150 is a bid to regain the #1 sales position by selling a more fuel-efficient truck. I will venture a guess that many more vehicles will be crafted from aluminum going forward, in the effort to reach the 54 mpg CAFE goal which begins phasing in in 2016, which now includes (for the first time) SUVs and Light Trucks. Those collision repair shops which cannot adapt to the new repair and refinishing techniques needed for aluminum will quickly become obsolete.

I see the biggest change going forward as the freedom from the built-in obsolescence of vehicle bodies that rust from the inside out beginning the day they are made. THAT really is different, and only happened because the CAFE goals caused the manufacturers to abandon steel vehicle construction.

To quote Car and Driver magazine:

We’ve been talking about expensive gas for a long time now, but for the first time it appears the market really is undergoing a fundamental shift. The execs may be right when they say this is not cyclical, that oil prices have brought us all to the tipping point and we will never make rote truck purchases again. We are all walking towards the green light. When four compact and mid-size cars outsell the workhorse of America, we may be ready to drink the Kool-aid.


http://www.caranddriver.com/news/after-a-17-year-run-ford-f-150-f-series-no-longer-sales-king-car-news
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3701
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby vision-master » Sun 29 Dec 2013, 13:49:00

The F-150 has been the best selling vehicle in the USA for 17 years straight. Then in May 2013, it was surpassed by four more fuel-efficient vehicles. Now it is rated fifth in sales following Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla, Toyota Camry, and Honda Accord.


Honda's? :lol:

Like that toad the Honda FIT with terrible gas mileage for a compact and slow as hell. Are they still running a 4 speed auto. lol :lol:

Hate to break it to ya but, Honda's are overpriced and if they are so great, where's the 100,000 mile power-train warranty?
vision-master
 

Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby dolanbaker » Sun 29 Dec 2013, 13:57:25

Why don't the US just follow the European or Japanese model of vehicle design with its much superior fuel consumption figures rather than trying to find an American solution to an American problem.

It sounds like the NASA joke about spending millions on developing a pen that could be used by astronauts in zero gravity, while the Soviet cosmonauts used pencils. :razz:
Ronald Coase, Nobel Economic Sciences, said in 1991 “If we torture the data long enough, it will confess.”
User avatar
dolanbaker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3367
Joined: Wed 14 Apr 2010, 09:38:47
Location: Éire

Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby vision-master » Sun 29 Dec 2013, 14:10:27

Why don't the US just follow the European or Japanese model of vehicle design with its much superior fuel consumption figures rather than trying to find an American solution to an American problem.


Not only that, some engines used in Europe are not available in the USA (same vehicles) - example many diesel engines.
vision-master
 

Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 29 Dec 2013, 14:12:23

The USA is not Europe and not anywhere else, either. Our country's infrastructure and population distribution was formed in an era of cheap fossil fuels. Now it must change, and it only makes sense that we find unique solutions for unique situations.

We were the country with the most to gain from reducing vehicle emissions, and we did so.

A 45 mpg Ford F-150 is a transition vehicle. But the fact that it is being planned says that finally, the oil peak is acknowledged by the general population and the CEOs of Detroit. Not a bad thing, just a couple of decades late.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3701
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby vision-master » Sun 29 Dec 2013, 14:15:26

A 45 mpg Ford F-150 is a transition vehicle.


What, a $60,000 Hybrid? :lol:

How about stuff like the IQ instead?

Oh I know, big bad American needs a 4 door 3/4 ton pickup.
vision-master
 

Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 29 Dec 2013, 14:16:19

Donlan - I see the problem...it's the translation. You're saying "Euro vehicles get better mileage". Translated into Texan: "Why don't you just cut your balls off and make the transition to womanhood complete." LOL.

Dents: There are two kinds of p/u in Texas: dirty country trucks with dents and city trucks with no dents and never dirty for more than a day or two. In the country a lot of dents come from the stock banging into you. In Houston it's more likely from a stumbling drunk in a parking lot.
User avatar
ROCKMAN
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 9951
Joined: Tue 27 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: TEXAS

Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby dolanbaker » Sun 29 Dec 2013, 14:37:03

ROCKMAN wrote:Donlan - I see the problem...it's the translation. You're saying "Euro vehicles get better mileage". Translated into Texan: "Why don't you just cut your balls off and make the transition to womanhood complete." LOL.

.
:-D

Perhaps the Texans should be reminded that if they buy the EU version, they'll save enough on petrol money to visit that woman of their dreams and also be able to afford to wine and dine her. :P
Ronald Coase, Nobel Economic Sciences, said in 1991 “If we torture the data long enough, it will confess.”
User avatar
dolanbaker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3367
Joined: Wed 14 Apr 2010, 09:38:47
Location: Éire

Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 29 Dec 2013, 15:29:08

Tanada wrote:When I was growing up a pick up was a general labor work vehicle used mostly by farmers and construction industry types to haul stuff from point A to point B.


This is still the case in rural places like western Panama in the mountains where I live. The Nissan Patrol is the most common heavy duty work truck. They are not marketed in the US which is too bad because they are work horses. Here is mine. Only mechanicl, you have to go out and lock the wheels when engaging the 4WD, windows are opened manually. All the electrical components are high up on the dash for going over rivers etc.

Image

There are hardly any Ford 150/250/350's here. I asked about this. The response was that these vehicles have all the power required in their engines but when hauling loads up steep slopes on 4WD roads their differentials cant take it and break.

Long term Ford could do well with a similar vehicle.
Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 5450
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 29 Dec 2013, 18:06:27

Ford had the #1 selling US vehicle for 17+ years. They understand their marketplace, I believe. They probably do not care to dominate the truck market in Panama.

That matter of the axles not being stout, for example. The voluntary fuel economy game that all the manufacturers play, requires that one version of each vehicle exist with lightweight running gear. That version IS NOT suitable for a work truck, it's only purpose is to get a higher number on the mileage sticker of a new vehicle. All the dealers understand this and order heavier duty options for axles and transmissions and so forth for the vehicles they sell. Fords, Chevys, and Dodge trucks are all quite durable as they leave the dealership with these options, but those work trucks will also never see the same gas mileage as the lighter one the EPA tested and was used for the sticker mileage.

In truth, you would not want to own one of those high mileage trucks - the powertrains are not stout enough for the stock chassis.Reliability would be poor, especially in the mountains. If the dealership in Panama did not order the right options, any American made vehicle would not seem to be reliable.

Even my beloved Jeep SUVs fall victim to this. Jeep has versions of each model with lighter axles and smaller engines. But what you find on the dealership lot is nicely optioned and a lot more reliable. I own a Wrangler Rubicon which has heavy duty axles front and rear, and a heavy duty transfer case and the largest engine they make for this model. I have never had a mechanical problem in 11 years - but I don't expect to get the mileage on the sticker.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3701
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: Will aluminum Ford F-150 be a rolling beer can?

Unread postby Loki » Sun 29 Dec 2013, 18:26:35

So this new aluminum F-150 will apparently get close to 30 mpg. Pretty good for a full-size pick up. Diesel would probably improve that a couple more miles per gallon, but gawd forbid Americans be allowed diesel in anything other than 8 cylinders.

The huge weight savings are expected to help push the F-150 to nearly 30 mpg highway in its most efficient trim levels (there has been talk of possibly adding a 2.7-liter, four-cylinder EcoBoost engine to the powertrain mix). The most efficient model in the current F-150 lineup only musters 23 mpg highway.

http://www.dailytech.com/Aluminumclad+F ... e33997.htm


Ibon wrote:There are hardly any Ford 150/250/350's here. I asked about this. The response was that these vehicles have all the power required in their engines but when hauling loads up steep slopes on 4WD roads their differentials cant take it and break.

I don't know about this, the F series is THE work truck for American farmers, construction, etc. We have plenty of 4WD roads here.

My old 1994 diesel F-250 has something like 220,000 miles on it, beat to shit from years of construction and farming, but keeps on trucking. Expensive to maintain, though, which is why I sold it to my boss :wink:

We have a 1980ish F-350 dually flatbed truck on the farm, that thing has been abused to no end, runs primarily on muddy farm roads.
A garden will make your rations go further.
User avatar
Loki
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 3509
Joined: Sat 08 Apr 2006, 02:00:00
Location: Oregon

Next

Return to Conservation & Efficiency

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests