[onlooker]

The full title of the book which is linked here below is "The Death of Money: The coming collapse of the international monetary system"
https://books.google.com/books?id=uUNKA ... e&q&f=true
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-08-1 ... bt-slavery
The above is a link to an article related to Greece moving to alternative currencies/bartering systems. I also had read Venezuela was active in this respect. From reading excerpts of this book which predicts the collapse of the International Monetary System the author states that their definitely is a trend of growing use of alternative currencies and virtual or electronic currencies such as bitcoin. Also, "Barter is a growing form of economic exchange today". All this appears quite predictable as economies around the world are floundering and people are cash strapped. So people needing a way to survive are thus seeking alternative routes to exchange/trade for economic necessities and wants.

[Paulo1]

I don't think it is so much about currency collapse, rather, it reflects when people are no longer served fairly by their institutions. For example, when I was drawing a paycheck I had more than 30% deducted at source. Sometimes, 40%. With Union dues, pension plan contributions, (Unemployment Insurance which I have never collected) etc, approx 1/2 my pay was deducted. Then, when I bought stuff with after tax dollars I would pay Provincial sales tax and the hated GST. We have a lot taxes in Canada. Fine, I have no problem with any of that as long as 'they' don't waste my money in Ottawa and what they spend my money on is evenly distributed. For the most part it is with our single payer health system, etc. But my moonlighting jobs were always about cash. I always felt I paid more than my fair share in formal employment and purchases, but after that it is my business. Moonlighting was extra, and if I didn't do it the work would not get done at higher formal/legitimate pay scales. I would do flights so the owner and employees could have weekends off once in awhile. I built and helped home owners self-build because they could not afford a contractor. I buy lumber from a local mill because the stuff in town is crap and too expensive. I can't use my cash lumber in town as it is ungraded, yet it is of higher quality. It stays in shadowland.

And this attitude goes beyond the money system. The Govt lets natives catch and sell sockeye under the table when the fishery is shut down for everyone else, so we build hidden compartments in our boats. Yesterday, I was offered free 'food fish' sockeye from a new neighbour. (His wife is native). I politely declined and said I catch my own salmon, "but thanks for the offer". Fish and Game allocate elk for big game hunter operations and for natives, yet the elk eat our hay and fruit trees all year...so guess what? We get our own elk as needed. We are harrased by the health authority mandating septic installation by contractors who engineer and gouge, because they hold the market captive. We put in our own and don't say anything.

When any system becomes weighted and unfair, the shadow world develops. It is a new version of farmers hiding their grain from the tax collectors.

I believe it is the same with international exchange. When the US dollar reserve status is onerous and unfair, countries look for alternatives. There are favoured trade status partners, giveaways to protected industries and corporations. This crap chaffs. Alternatives will be found by countries much like individuals do. I believe it is just a function of scale.

[onlooker]

Great post Paulo. Yes all this is indicative of a system which is not adequately or fairly addressing peoples needs and reasonable wants. Greece and Venezuela are not forsaking the system because of some technical currency volatility but because they feel unfairly treated by Big institutions and countries ie. EU and US as well as their banks and also because the people are seeking any viable alternatives. So people are rearranging their economies in small to large groups to suit their needs. This only is logical as the expediencies of the situation demand it.

[Outcast_Searcher]

We are harrased by the health authority mandating septic installation by contractors who engineer and gouge, because they hold the market captive. We put in our own and don't say anything.

And have fun with the fines, possible confiscation of property, etc. when the authorities find out. Health laws are there for a reason, and the authorities won't take kindly to their being flouted.

When any system becomes weighted and unfair, the shadow world develops. It is a new version of farmers hiding their grain from the tax collectors.

OK. And with modern computers, good luck getting away with it. The occasional secret compartment of fish in a boat (risking confiscation of the boat when found) aside, it's not like real businesses can do without things like bank accounts and records. (The authorities demand thorough records).

For example, I met a guy in my smallish US city who enforces businesses paying their state taxes. One method they use is simply tracking their credit card statement data. When the credit card shows significant underlying cash flow which the business doesn't report -- blammo, the business gets blown up with all the penalties, interest, etc. When the dummies ignore the warnings/demands to comply and pay their back taxes, they go to jail and the fines, etc. get magnified.

I believe it is the same with international exchange. When the US dollar reserve status is onerous and unfair, countries look for alternatives.

So an alternative currency will magically change everything? Sure. Just like my home-grown purple unicorn steaks meet all my food needs for free.

And I'll believe countries will step aside and give up on tax collection due to virtual currencies when I see it happen en masse. And, given how dishonest many people are, I'll believe virtual currencies that are completely untraceable and can't be taxed can be trusted not to blow up (i.e. suddenly become worthless) when I see that work en masse for a decade or so. (And I won't be holding my breath).

[onlooker]

OS you are defending a system which should not be defended. Just because people could not come up with something better is not a defense of this economic/political system. Your right from countries all the way down to individuals we are expected to comply and enforcement is merciless from individuals criminally prosecuted to countries embargoed-sanctioned and even invaded. You admit many people are dishonest. So you rather be a pawn of the corrupt and unequal scheme that is this system which benefits a few to the detriment of the many. You I am gathering had the luck to fall some where in between as a middle class member of a rich country so your spared the more egregious aspects of this system like having to migrate in dangerous conditions just to survive or lacking in enough food, or lacking in healthcare and sanitation or immersed in some violent conflict with your neighbors or the government or living in a crime infested neighborhood. The strong prey on the weak that is emblematic of this capitalist system. It is a form of corruption. So Congratulations on your good fortune. But please do not defend the defenseless.

[Outcast_Searcher]

OS you are defending a system which should not be defended. Just because people could not come up with something better is not a defense of this economic/political system. Your right from countries all the way down to individuals we are expected to comply and enforcement is merciless from individuals criminally prosecuted to countries embargoed-sanctioned and even invaded. You admit many people are dishonest. So you rather be a pawn of the corrupt and unequal scheme that is this system which benefits a few to the detriment of the many. You I am gathering had the luck to fall some where in between as a middle class member of a rich country so your spared the more egregious aspects of this system like having to migrate in dangerous conditions just to survive or lacking in enough food, or lacking in healthcare and sanitation or immersed in some violent conflict with your neighbors or the government or living in a crime infested neighborhood. The strong prey on the weak that is emblematic of this capitalist system. It is a form of corruption. So Congratulations on your good fortune. But please do not defend the defenseless.

Do you actually have anything more constructive to say than "I hate the system"? Like actual workable alternatives? If you don't, yammering away at how egregious you find things doesn't mean much.

And your earlier comments about how reasonable Greece and Venezuala citizenry and all their wants are pretty much speaks for itself. If only the world were magical and something for nothing were a workable system, your mode of thinking would be sheer genius. Sadly, we don't live in that world. And by the way, you can't magically make the world a great place by endless redistribution of wealth in whatever manner you feel is "fair".

[davep]

OS you are defending a system which should not be defended. Just because people could not come up with something better is not a defense of this economic/political system. Your right from countries all the way down to individuals we are expected to comply and enforcement is merciless from individuals criminally prosecuted to countries embargoed-sanctioned and even invaded. You admit many people are dishonest. So you rather be a pawn of the corrupt and unequal scheme that is this system which benefits a few to the detriment of the many. You I am gathering had the luck to fall some where in between as a middle class member of a rich country so your spared the more egregious aspects of this system like having to migrate in dangerous conditions just to survive or lacking in enough food, or lacking in healthcare and sanitation or immersed in some violent conflict with your neighbors or the government or living in a crime infested neighborhood. The strong prey on the weak that is emblematic of this capitalist system. It is a form of corruption. So Congratulations on your good fortune. But please do not defend the defenseless.

Do you actually have anything more constructive to say than "I hate the system"? Like actual workable alternatives? If you don't, yammering away at how egregious you find things doesn't mean much.

And your earlier comments about how reasonable Greece and Venezuala citizenry and all their wants are pretty much speaks for itself. If only the world were magical and something for nothing were a workable system, your mode of thinking would be sheer genius. Sadly, we don't live in that world. And by the way, you can't magically make the world a great place by endless redistribution of wealth in whatever manner you feel is "fair".

I've been through all this before, but I'll do it again. The current international monetary system is based around creating money via credit (i.e. debt). See the Bank of England report called "Money creation in the modern economy" if you think this isn't the case http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/quarterlybulletin/2014/qb14q1prereleasemoneycreation.pdf

Then look at the the means of transitioning from a debt-based money system to an equity-based one. Such as these IMF researchers' work https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2012/wp12202.pdf that addresses the four major issues with the current monetary system:
1) The business cycles due to loosening and tightening of bank lending policy is removed
2) 100% reserves would eliminate the risk of bank runs
3) Allowing Governments to issue money at 0% interest rather than borrowing that same money from banks at interest dramatically reduces sovereign debt.
4) Given that money creation would no longer require the simultaneous creation of mostly private debts on bank balance sheets, the economy could see a dramatic reduction not only of government debt but also of private debt levels.

Here's the recent Icelandic proposal to move to such an equity-based system http://www.forsaetisraduneyti.is/media/Skyrslur/monetary-reform.pdf

It's not about looking for magical solutions, but recognising the deeply flawed nature of the current international monetary system. And then transitioning to a more stable one that isn't about creating money through credit.

[davep]

Davep, you can not have money without debt. All money is fundamentally an IOU, a promise for future work. We can control money for the public good. That takes a free people which apparently the banksters can not stand.

Of course they couldn't stand it. They've engineered the current money creation process for their own benefit. But some of the quotes by economists after the Icelandic sovereign money proposal were interesting http://positivemoney.org/2015/04/economists-saying-icelands-sovereign-money-proposal/ e.g.:

“Radical bank reform is mostly endorsed by academics, commentators and crackpots. So it is certainly worth taking note when a senior person in a real government calls for a top-to-bottom makeover of banks and the monetary system…Still, the Sigurjonsson plan is a plausible blueprint for better banking and Iceland is a good place to start. The population may be embittered enough to try something new and the established global powers of banking would probably tolerate an experiment in this miniature economy.”

The paragraph in the original article ends

...But they might regret it. The bankers’ lucrative money-creating power could be threatened by a monetary revolution which started in Reykjavík

[careinke]

Davep, you can not have money without debt. All money is fundamentally an IOU, a promise for future work. We can control money for the public good. That takes a free people which apparently the banksters can not stand.

Of course you can have money without debt. You just can't have government/banker control of money without debt.

[Hawkcreek]

Looks to me like redistribution of wealth has been going on a long time - wealth going from the powerless to the ones that make the rules. That is how we end up with a system described by Paulo1 above.
Our whole society is based on giving half, or more of our work or wealth, to the kings above us.
It would not be hard to come up with an equitable system, but that means that the present giveaways to the rich would be stopped. That will never happen without force being applied.
One good start would be to make sure that everyone - including all corporate persons, pays the same percentage in taxes AND fees. If a rich person had to pay the same percentage of their income that a poor person did just to gain entry to one of the king's forests (state or national parks anyone), the fees would be reconsidered, in my opinion. Same for septic system, building permits, state supported education, etc..
Right now anyone with a brain can see that our tax and fee system is NOT equitable.

[davep]

Looks to me like redistribution of wealth has been going on a long time - wealth going from the powerless to the ones that make the rules. That is how we end up with a system described by Paulo1 above.
Our whole society is based on giving half, or more of our work or wealth, to the kings above us.
It would not be hard to come up with an equitable system, but that means that the present giveaways to the rich would be stopped. That will never happen without force being applied.
One good start would be to make sure that everyone - including all corporate persons, pays the same percentage in taxes AND fees. If a rich person had to pay the same percentage of their income that a poor person did just to gain entry to one of the king's forests (state or national parks anyone), the fees would be reconsidered, in my opinion. Same for septic system, building permits, state supported education, etc..
Right now anyone with a brain can see that our tax and fee system is NOT equitable.

While I agree with the sentiments, we are no longer in a worker-capitalist dichotomy. Workers, corporations and governments all end up indebted to the banks due to the current monetary system. So shuffling the tax burden while the banks effectively tax us all into debt seems like an exercise in futility.

[davep]

Davep, you can not have money without debt. All money is fundamentally an IOU, a promise for future work. We can control money for the public good. That takes a free people which apparently the banksters can not stand.

Of course you can have money without debt. You just can't have government/banker control of money without debt.

So you are a gold bug? I'd prefer to be a compost bug lol

Davep, I looked at the proposal. The banks would administer the payments function, and act as intermediary (middleman) between savers and
borrowers. But the government would create money. So money creation is taken out of capital flow and away from the market place. Doesn't seem doable. I'll try to read more

It's the separation of money creation and credit (and creating 100% reserves in the process of moving to an equity-based rather than debt-based system). It's eminently doable. The Icelandic document has simpler language than the rather opaque IMF research paper and is probably easier to get the gist of.

Oh, and you don't need to have a precious-metals based currency. Fiat currency is fine so long as its creation is debt-free and based on either a non-modifiable formula or a non-Governmental entity. The entity sets the rate of money creation and the Government decides how to spend it. There are variations on the theme though. Check out http://www.themoneymasters.com/monetary-reform-act/ for another take on the transition process and how the subsequent equity-based system could work.

[Outcast_Searcher]

Outcaste, when financial obligations are corrupt they must be mediated. The EU is once again repeating the mistake of onerous reparations. only this time it is Germany imposing them on Greece and soon Italy, Spain, and the rest. It is stupid and cruel and does not help the people. Cuba and Iran have been embargoed-sanctioned and even invaded for conflicts that happened generations ago. Is it fair to punish children for the sins of their fathers? We hate Cuba because Americans assets were seized in the 60's revolution, yet we give the thieves who corrupted the country a pass. Same with Iran, we hate Iran but not the oil thieves who murdered Mossadeq a half century ago. Do we hate the Greeks because their government accepted corrupt debt?

The Greek people were prayed upon by the Euro-banksters, rotten financial controls, onerous debt, and plain bad luck ($147 oil). It is not that all dissimilar to what happened in the US. Obligation were imposed on the American people by the mortgage lenders, those mortgages were intentionally impossible to understand, rating agencies that were asleep at the wheel, banksters and their handmaidens in the Fed. People have the right to revolt and it just might happen in Greece and the rest of Southern Europe. But never America, we are owned by the rich..

All the PIGGS, including Portugal, Ireland, Greece, Great Britain, and Spain were particularly devastated by $147 oil back in 2008. So was the US.) The Germans are acting like jerks, like the French did after WWI. You can not expect onerous reparations to be taken lightly.

On this, we just have to disagree.

1). The Greeks (as a country) have repeatedly shown themselves to be completely out of control as far as financial prudence. If they don't like "onerous" debt, then they certainly shouldn't spend generations piling it up.

2). The Greeks now expect ANOTHER loan of nearly $100 BILLION. And you expect the Germans to just lend that to them because . . . they like to give money away to the irresponsible? Good luck with that plan.

3). I don't hate anybody. I do expect adults to act at least a little bit like adults and accept some personal responsibility for their actions. By the way, I realize the US is piling up huge amounts of debt too, and I am an American. Unfortunately, it seems that 99% of my fellow voters place consumption today over seriously paying DOWN the debt as a high priority.

[onlooker]

Pstar,

Oh, and you don't need to have a precious-metals based currency. Fiat currency is fine so long as its creation is debt-free

Okay I am understanding this Plan David for the most part and boy does it make a lot of sense. Pstar's concern about value is addressed as money creation would be tied to actual economic assets and real world transactions rather then what have now which is a gambling casino with so much money floating around as pixels on computer screens. To me the two points which are fundamental is that interest is taken out of the equation and that government is the creator of money as supposedly the government is more responsive to the people then private banks. As Dave pointed out private banks including central reserve banks have indebted everyone from countries on down to what is now ridiculous levels. Dave I now have read part of this plan it really is well thought out especially in the sense that as the name implies it is equity based including 100% reserves. All money is transacted on a sound basis without speculative volatility in investment and without burdening anyone with interest. It sounds imminently doable of course if you can get the super powerful banks to buy into it.

[Paulo1]

Outcast,

In your response you seemed to imply a few things that were not stated. Septic permits for example. My buddy has been putting in proper systems for nigh on 20 years. A few years ago the laws were changed requiring engineered systems and 'approved' contractors. He is no longer allowed to put in systems unless he works installing under the direction of approved contractors. I know one of the approved contractors, as he is the brother of a past neighbour when I lived in town. He has stated he will not install a system unless he makes at least $5,000 profit. PROFIT...after his wages and expenses. This new law has now placed a surcharge on all new systems, newly approved but no better than previous methods. What once cost a homeowner $5,000-$7,000 now costs in excess of $20,000 due to a lack of competition.

reference to the same problem in US: http://www.motherearthnews.com/homestea ... mzmcc.aspx

And on and on. I have been a red seal carpenter for 25 years. Nowdays, all work has to be engineered and signed off by an engineer when a simple building inspection used to suffice. Cost? An additional $2,000 for a 'stamp'. Result? Now homeowners do not pull permits and hire under the table. An example. My son-in-law was going to tear down a decrepit shed on his property and put in a small woodshop. He lives in town. I told him, "for Gods sake, don't pull a permit, I'll do it fo you". He did and the nightmare started. What would have been a simple $5,000 shop built by moi, became an estimated $20,000 nightmare. He cancelled the permit, and I 'renovated' the existing structure by repairing and adding on. He got a decent shop, but not what he wanted. The city did not get a permit fee.

I urge you to read the Mother Earth News article. It is most enlightening and is a good example of needless complexity mandated from top down.

regards

[radon1]

When reviewing all these interest-free money rationing schemes, consider a simple situation. Suppose that you are running finances in a firm and all of a sudden need to draw a bit of money from your bank for whatever petty purposes, like paying a one-off bonus to employees for whatever reason in the middle of the month. Previously, you could use an overdraft facility with your bank, but now you are phoning your banker and he responds "we cannot give you the money, we've used up our share in the money-rationing scheme for this month, and herr commander at the central monetary authority will not extend any more funds to us." Then, you are phoning that herr commander and he responds "we don't have any more money for you, and bugger off already, we have too many important things to do to deal with your petty noises", hangs up and continues his navel gazing.