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Short term GDP numbers may have large error bound

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Short term GDP numbers may have large error bound

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 24 Mar 2016, 12:51:38

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/03/24/cnbc-ana ... mbers.html
CNBC analysis: Don't trust those GDP numbers

An in-depth analysis by CNBC of the government's reports on gross domestic product suggests large and persistent errors that should give investors, business executives and policymakers pause in relying on the data for key decisions.

CNBC looked at each quarterly report going back to 1990 and found an average error rate of 1.3 percentage points. So an initial report of 2 percent growth on average later would be revised to 3.3 percent or 0.7 percent.

The research does not show any systematic overstatement or understatement of growth, just persistently large revisions.

(Blue font mine, to try to blunt random speculation that somehow the data is biased, proving we are all (naturally) doomed). Not that that would ever happen on THIS site. :roll:


Seriously though, if proven correct, this is very interesting.

First, given how random and wrong short term economic forecasts tend to be, and given the complexity of the economy and how much it is constantly evolving, this isn't surprising, IMO. In fact, it seems intuitively obvious, given how many components of GDP are estimates.

Second, it means that economic pundits of ALL stripes leaping to all sorts of short term predictions of boom or bust on recent GDP numbers are just guesses.

That would seem to make a large proportion of this site's posts rather irrelevant.
Moulton noted that revisions are often largest around turning points in the economy, like when it's entering or exiting recession, as it was in 1992 and in 2008. And some variables are outside its control.

For example, individuals and companies are always going to file tax data late, receive extensions and amend returns. Corporate returns are often complicated.

Outside economists do not envy the bureau's task of measuring production in the $18 trillion U.S. economy. Over time, as the economy has become more service-oriented, it's become harder to measure actual output, especially when the measures include complex ideas like intellectual property.

Now - this is just one study by one news source on 25ish years of data. It might be wrong. But if it's right, since no bias suggesting obvious fixes is shown, it might, for example imply that government, the Fed, etc. should just calm down and do a lot less short term economic tinkering.

OTOH, given the attention span of voters overall and the hubris of "experts", I don't expect much to change anytime soon -- even if this were to be strongly validated as correct by several credible sources.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Short term GDP numbers may have large error bound

Unread postby americandream » Thu 24 Mar 2016, 17:23:37

Everything is priced into the numbers and as a rule, I ignore analysts and other punters. I use fundamental analysis to tease out the underlying and objective trends, invariably related to innovation and the rise of new sectors for the potential to tap new surplus. I especially watch India and China as they retain powerful potential for surplus and value extraction as well as innovative competition. Players such as Trump of course threaten to end the old establishment inefficiencies and to that extent, open up exciting new opportunities in the management area (government by mandarins). But that is limited given the nature of management which will always involve an element of gaming the system. The private sector will for the duration be the decisive component in capitalism along with the opening up of new value (labour). They are the only 2 that really matter. The government is a distraction any smart player is well advised to REASONABLY ignore.
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Re: Short term GDP numbers may have large error bound

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 24 Mar 2016, 18:14:47

americandream wrote:Everything is priced into the numbers and as a rule, I ignore analysts and other punters. I use fundamental analysis to tease out the underlying and objective trends, invariably related to innovation and the rise of new sectors for the potential to tap new surplus. I especially watch India and China as they retain powerful potential for surplus and value extraction as well as innovative competition.

...

The private sector will for the duration be the decisive component in capitalism along with the opening up of new value (labour). They are the only 2 that really matter. The government is a distraction any smart player is well advised to REASONABLY ignore.

Thanks, AD, for an interesting and substantive post.

I hear you and what you say sounds reasonable to me.

With respect: as a capitalist, perhaps I'm a coward, but given the arbitrariness and power of the clownfest on Capitol Hill, I differ with you that in THEORY, if it were a level playing field, government would be irrelevant, since except for rules and waste, they don't actually produce a lot (in my experience, aside from economic distortion). HOWEVER, given the power they have and their ability to RETROACTIVELY impose rule changes, stiff fines, etc. -- I'm very leery about just ignoring government.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Short term GDP numbers may have large error bound

Unread postby dissident » Thu 24 Mar 2016, 18:29:41

The real problem is that the CPI and PPI are manipulated into meaninglessness. So the GDP deflator (a weighted blend of CPI and PPI) is too small and the real GDP growth is too large. The noise does not really matter, it's the biases in the calculation that do.

http://www.shadowstats.com/
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Re: Short term GDP numbers may have large error bound

Unread postby americandream » Thu 24 Mar 2016, 18:40:45

dissident wrote:The real problem is that the CPI and PPI are manipulated into meaninglessness. So the GDP deflator (a weighted blend of CPI and PPI) is too small and the real GDP growth is too large. The noise does not really matter, it's the biases in the calculation that do.

http://www.shadowstats.com/


I guess it all depends on your use for this data. How you correct this practice...is anyone guess.
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Re: Short term GDP numbers may have large error bound

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 24 Mar 2016, 18:44:15

dissident wrote:The real problem is that the CPI and PPI are manipulated into meaninglessness. So the GDP deflator (a weighted blend of CPI and PPI) is too small and the real GDP growth is too large. The noise does not really matter, it's the biases in the calculation that do.

http://www.shadowstats.com/

So you choose a clearly biased and paranoid blogger because his version of the "truth" is what you want to hear.

Fine. I consider the objective MSM and the government stats as an imperfect, though MUCH more accurate measurement.

Each to their own, but why doesn't the actual "collapse" slightly correlate with the constant predictions of collapse, if the paranoid "the powers that be are just liars" doomsayers are the only folks who are correct? Why is it that decade after decade, the moderates who say that things aren't great but will likely continue to muddle along, in the end, the most accurate in the longer run?

Because you are certain the doomers will be right THIS time, perhaps?
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Short term GDP numbers may have large error bound

Unread postby americandream » Thu 24 Mar 2016, 18:57:16

I think its common knowledge in the markets that for whatever reason, these numbers often come out wrong. No one really takes them serious...they serve as a guide to what is otherwise intuitive. Shit happens but its not the end of the world...yet.
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Re: Short term GDP numbers may have large error bound

Unread postby GoghGoner » Fri 25 Mar 2016, 07:16:27

The GDP numbers are used to estimate oil demand by the IEA. When anybody posts current oil demand numbers on this site, I always roll my eyes a bit.
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Re: Short term GDP numbers may have large error bound

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 26 Mar 2016, 04:01:38

GoghGoner wrote:The GDP numbers are used to estimate oil demand by the IEA. When anybody posts current oil demand numbers on this site, I always roll my eyes a bit.

But this site is full of economic pundits of wildly varying types. What would we do if we weren't able to give our opinions on things like current oil demand? :)

I mean look how well we all predict the coming year's price of oil every year via our little contest. :roll:
Shouldn't that be a hint that we all know exactly what we're talking about? :lol:
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Short term GDP numbers may have large error bound

Unread postby marmico » Sat 26 Mar 2016, 08:14:53

Shadowstats Williams is a hack. In any event, the CPI is not a NIPA deflator.

Anything you want to know about The Revisions to GDP, GDI, and Their Major Components

http://www.bea.gov/scb/pdf/2014/08%20Au ... onents.pdf
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Re: Short term GDP numbers may have large error bound

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 26 Mar 2016, 09:23:07

Not being an active investor I don't need to know the real GDP number or any other government stat so am just an amused onlooker.
I think many of the numbers are manipulated and fudged for governments purposes. For one thing herd mentality does exist and the publishing of negative data will often become a self filling prophecy so they send out optimistic numbers at first and wait until nobody is looking or cares before revising them to more accurate figures. This is especially true in election cycles with good news coming before the vote and the rest of the story coming after the voters can do anything about it.
Then there are the unemployment figures where they have openly discounted people who have given up looking for work thereby taking a real unemployment rate of around fifteen percent and reduced it to five.
Do not discount the input the government has on GDP. With 17% of the economy in healthcare now a fully government managed enterprise added to the military and other government procurement programs the government may well be fifty percent of GDP either directly or one step away from it.
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Re: Short term GDP numbers may have large error bound

Unread postby dissident » Sat 26 Mar 2016, 11:03:27

marmico wrote:Shadowstats Williams is a hack. In any event, the CPI is not a NIPA deflator.

Anything you want to know about The Revisions to GDP, GDI, and Their Major Components

http://www.bea.gov/scb/pdf/2014/08%20Au ... onents.pdf


PPI sunshine, look it up.

Your proof by assertion label "hack" says more about you than Williams.

I can see the inflation rate in the products and food I buy, including the degradation of quality (aka implicit inflation). None of it is in the official statistics. Opinions of true believers like you count for nothing.
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Re: Short term GDP numbers may have large error bound

Unread postby Cog » Sat 26 Mar 2016, 12:13:41

The number that isn't fudged is the SNAP data. It shows the number of people using food stamps has gone down over the last couple of years. If the underlying economy is getting worse, that number should be increasing. Its not.

http://www.fns.usda.gov/sites/default/f ... onthly.xls

I'm not seeing a recession or anything approaching one right now.
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Re: Short term GDP numbers may have large error bound

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 26 Mar 2016, 12:35:12

Cog wrote:The number that isn't fudged is the SNAP data. It shows the number of people using food stamps has gone down over the last couple of years. If the underlying economy is getting worse, that number should be increasing. Its not.

http://www.fns.usda.gov/sites/default/f ... onthly.xls

I'm not seeing a recession or anything approaching one right now.

My you are a trusting soul! What makes you think they don't fiddle with those numbers as well?
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Re: Short term GDP numbers may have large error bound

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 26 Mar 2016, 19:54:02

vtsnowedin wrote: I think many of the numbers are manipulated and fudged for governments purposes. For one thing herd mentality does exist and the publishing of negative data will often become a self filling prophecy so they send out optimistic numbers at first and wait until nobody is looking or cares before revising them to more accurate figures. This is especially true in election cycles with good news coming before the vote and the rest of the story coming after the voters can do anything about it.

:lol: So I guess you ignored how in the first post I pointed out (in blue font) that there is NO positive or negative bias in the error -- it is just persistently large on average. I also pointed out that the reason I highlighted that point was to try to dissuade paranoid claims of manipulation (so common on this site).
I see that worked very well in your case. :roll:

If the government is distorting it, why wouldn't the error be to the upside in the short term? Do you think the government would deliberately try to make the economy look BAD in the short term to balance things out? The same government full of short term re-election seekers and approaching a $20 trillion national debt?

vtsnowedin wrote:Do not discount the input the government has on GDP. With 17% of the economy in healthcare now a fully government managed enterprise added to the military and other government procurement programs the government may well be fifty percent of GDP either directly or one step away from it.

I agree. We better hope a clown like Sanders doesn't get elected, or we can expect the government proportion of the economy (and waste) to escalate rapidly. (A libreral's paradise: everyone poorer, but things "fairer" if they get to arbitrarily redistribute lots of income).
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Short term GDP numbers may have large error bound

Unread postby Cog » Sat 26 Mar 2016, 23:24:32

vtsnowedin wrote:
Cog wrote:The number that isn't fudged is the SNAP data. It shows the number of people using food stamps has gone down over the last couple of years. If the underlying economy is getting worse, that number should be increasing. Its not.

http://www.fns.usda.gov/sites/default/f ... onthly.xls

I'm not seeing a recession or anything approaching one right now.

My you are a trusting soul! What makes you think they don't fiddle with those numbers as well?


Because unlike doomers here I am not looking to confirm any biases. I simply don't care whether the numbers go up, down, or sideways.
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Re: Short term GDP numbers may have large error bound

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 27 Mar 2016, 07:39:09

Outcast- searcher wrote.
So I guess you ignored how in the first post I pointed out (in blue font) that there is NO positive or negative bias in the error -- it is just persistently large on average. I also pointed out that the reason I highlighted that point was to try to dissuade paranoid claims of manipulation (so common on this site).
I see that worked very well in your case. :roll:

No it did not. My distrust of this administration can not be turned off at the flip of a switch. It's nice to say there was no bias but my own observation and experience working in government shows that to be extremely unlikely.
If the most respected member of the Obama administration told us the sun was rising in the East I'd go to the window and check for myself before believing him.
Fool me once Shame on you, Fool me twice Shame on me.
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Re: Short term GDP numbers may have large error bound

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Sun 27 Mar 2016, 09:20:12

A meeting point between many of those of us here for a while has been the sensible requisite planning for some of the more likely outcomes in the median term- primarily about getting out of debt, & call it economic or food & basics- security- most of us still one way or other hawking our labour. I think Cog & I have an understanding about how this works.

To the job secure, not rich, debt free middle income earners- inflation- induced growth, more dollars more opportunity to increase personal income/ deflation- contracting money supply, higher value on baseline dollars earned. The economy just has to keep ticking over & you do well, because of your position in the survival mechanism of society. The upside to Orwell's Orb.
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Re: Short term GDP numbers may have large error bound

Unread postby Cog » Sun 27 Mar 2016, 12:59:59

What SeaGypsy said. If you do some preparing, you can ride out a lot of downturns, recessions, etc. Having multiple skill-sets in case one of your skills is not in demand anymore. The 2007 recession woke me up real quick and I started doing a lot of the economic preps that I had not been doing before. Thankfully, I held onto my job during that mess and it made it a lot easier to do.
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Re: Short term GDP numbers may have large error bound

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 27 Mar 2016, 14:01:16

vtsnowedin wrote:Outcast- searcher wrote.
So I guess you ignored how in the first post I pointed out (in blue font) that there is NO positive or negative bias in the error -- it is just persistently large on average. I also pointed out that the reason I highlighted that point was to try to dissuade paranoid claims of manipulation (so common on this site).
I see that worked very well in your case. :roll:

No it did not. My distrust of this administration can not be turned off at the flip of a switch. It's nice to say there was no bias but my own observation and experience working in government shows that to be extremely unlikely.
If the most respected member of the Obama administration told us the sun was rising in the East I'd go to the window and check for myself before believing him.
Fool me once Shame on you, Fool me twice Shame on me.

Yes, I know it didn't work for you. I was being sarcastic (thus the eye roll, for those in doubt).

The article stated there was no bias, indicating the data didn't show bias. But you are sure there was bias because you believed in government.

1). Do you have any data/links to show why this is true?

2). Just because there is incompetence and disagreement in government, doesn't mean there is systematic bias. For example if the pessimist in department A tends to push the short term numbers down and the optimist in department B tends to push the short term numbers up, it might not have any net influence over time. Also, since the numbers are derived from calculations, one would hope that systematic distortion of the numbers would be caught over time by competent people or entities like the CBO, OMB, etc.

3). The Obama administration certainly should be taken to task on keeping promises. That's different than lots of deliberate outright fraud. Do you have evidence of outright fraud? (Example: claiming Obamacare would save everyone $2500 per family on premiums (on average) was closer to politics and incompetence and broken promises to me. If you could show that the ACA statistics bweing published are being actively faked by the Obama administration and that Obama knows and condones this, then that would actually be fraud.

4). You haven't told us any specifics of how you were fooled. Can you do that, or is it classified?

...

Look, I generally don't like or trust big government, on principle. However, I don't just assume all big government is completely dishonest without some sort of evidence. The internet if full of people (representing both major) parties constantly claiming lying and conspiracy by the other side. However, how often is any meaningful proof provided? I'd say far less than 1% of the time.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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