[GHung]

An interesting late industrial age question. Just goes to show how one's world-view is skewed by one's status and lifestyle. Imagine.....

http://money.cnn.com/2016/01/27/technol ... -stack-dom

What if you never had to worry about rent or food?

That's the question Y Combinator wants to answer.

The Silicon Valley organization, known for its elite accelerator program, said that it's looking to fund a study on basic income.

The idea is to cover the costs of basic necessities -- like food and rent -- and then see what people do with that financial freedom.

Will people sit around all day watching Netflix and playing video games -- or will they start businesses? Will they be happy?

Y Combinator launched a nonprofit research hub in October, and the study is part of its new research efforts.

On Wednesday, Y Combinator's Sam Altman put out a call to hire a full-time researcher for the project, which will run for five years.

What does basic income mean in terms of a dollar figure? Altman told CNNMoney that he does not yet have a "specific number in mind."

"One of the ideas is to try different amounts," he said. "There's such a wide range of what [basic income is] that people have thrown out there. It will be open to the researcher."

Altman said the researcher will help decide key factors like how to find participants, whether it will take place in one geographic area or across the country, and whether the subjects will be individuals or include families.

Altman isn't sure how many study participants there will be, but said it will "probably be something in the double digits."

He said they'd look to select people at random -- as well as those from "poor backgrounds" who are driven and creative.

"They'll have total freedom to do whatever they want," he said. "They have basic income, so if they stop liking their job, they wouldn't have to keep going to work. They wouldn't be working because they had to pay rent. What do people do once they have that freedom?"

Related: Elon Musk and tech heavies invest $1 billion in artificial intelligence

Countries like Finland are considering paying citizens $10,000 per year to replace other state benefits, which are costly and riddled with bureaucracy.

The goal of YC's research is to come out with a data-based understanding of how a basic income would work in the U.S.

Altman said he's "fairly confident" that the U.S. will adopt some version of a basic income in the future as technology continues to eliminate jobs and new wealth is created.

Altman and YC Research backed its first big project, Open.AI in December. He said there will be a "couple" more smaller projects, like this basic income one, that will launch this year.

[Paulo1]

Ghung,

You might want to check this out. It's been done before and it works very well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome

[Newfie]

Interesting, not what I would have expected. Thanks.

[dohboi]

I never worry about anything.

But these bloody blighters really don't have to worry about anything; not in that direction, anyway:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/d ... -uk-greens

Dutch city plans to pay citizens a ‘basic income’

[Yukon fisher]

It was done in Canada too- in a small prairie town I think. It worked pretty well, but was terribly hard to sell politically, so it died.

[SeaGypsy]

Sounds like Australia has been since the 70's.

Sent from my HUAWEI Y520-U33 using Tapatalk

[WildRose]

From Paulo's Wiki link above:

Mothers with newborns stopped working because they wanted to stay at home longer with their babies, and teenagers worked less because they weren't under as much pressure to support their families, which resulted in more teenagers graduating. In addition, those who continued to work were given more opportunities to choose what type of work they did. Forget found that in the period that Mincome was administered, hospital visits dropped 8.5 percent, with fewer incidents of work-related injuries, and fewer emergency room visits from car accidents and domestic abuse.[7] Additionally, the period saw a reduction in rates of psychiatric hospitalization, and in the number of mental illness-related consultations with health professionals.[8][9]

Looks like it was good for the people who participated. More kids graduated high school, more babies had their moms at home longer, fewer visits to hospitals for all sorts of physical and mental health reasons. All due to one factor - decreased stress levels, at least, that's what I was able to deduce from this information.

[careinke]

Interesting concept. I wonder what would happen if you applied it to an entire country? Take the US for example:

The 2015 poverty level for a family of four is $24,250. Lets raise it to $30,000 so it is above the poverty level. I am assuming a family of four would be two adults and two children. Now lets divide the $30K between the two adults so each get $15,000.

So, for arguments sake, we give every legal adult US citizen, over the age of 18, $15,000 in un taxable money. (i.e. if taxes come from income, then raise the income tax to cover this added cost but don't tax the first 15K.)

In conjunction with the "pay for everyone", you would also eliminate most other forms of public assistance, including Social Security, since all adults would already be above the poverty line.

My guess would be people will still work, just not as many hours. Which is OK, since automation and AI can easily fill the labor gaps. And those that don't want to work and prefer to just consume less, or provide more for themselves by growing food gardens and playing with their kids? That's OK too.

Is this blatant wealth redistribution? Heck yes, but that's another topic.....

[SeaGypsy]

Seriously this has been how things are in Australia for decades, under different names.

An unemployed family with 2 school aged kids gets- $450ish each adult per 2 weeks, & $450 for the 2 kids- $1350 or $675 a week. Easily enough for rent & food & utilities. If you are disabled add about $100 a week. If you are sick, same as unemployed & if you don't qualify for any other payment & have little to no assets you qualify for 'special benefit' at the same rate as unemployment. It hasn't sent the country broke. There isn't a time limit. Roughly 1/3 of SS spending here goes to administration & employment assistance. Some have argued we should just generalise the payment system & get rid of most of the admin costs. Earning $50kpa, married with 2 kids, I pay very little tax, family assistance payments called 'family tax benefits' are about equal to my tax bill.- wasteful 'churning' yes, but I'm not complaining. Medicare at this level of income costs me $750 a year, for the whole family.

[Cog]

[Newfie]

I wonder if this would qualify as "Helicopter Money" as described in that thread? I think so.

[Ibon]

You do not need a government to make this policy. Every individual can cultivate this by not living life fearfully.

[GHung]

My questions are more systemic considering our long list of predicaments. Will collective consumption drop (as, IMO, it needs to dramatically). Will we, collectively, get our waste streams under control and greatly reduced? How will resources be distributed as population continues to climb (happier people may or may not increase their birth/survival rates)? Since 'money' is merely a claim on labour and resources, where will those resources come from? Will, as the article suggests, our labour be replaced by technology to an even greater degree? Any effect at all on our awful relationship with our planetary systems?

[curlyq3]

Howdy Cog ... is that a community stash of ammo or just a private collection ? ... I always chuckle when folks talk about stacking gold for when things come unglued !

curlyq3

[Paulo1]

Ibon put it quite nicely about living, or not living, fearfully. I sent the Mincome link about Brandon, which is a small city, because I have believed this would be a better way to go forward from my twenties.

In Canada, every Province has a hodge-podge of support systems, and they vary across the map. I taught school for 17 years and know entire families who are multi-generational welfare cases. I have flown bush planes into Native villages all over remote Canada and understand the Dole and handout system is a way of life with no negative attachments to it, only complaints that it should be more generous and the free housing should be better to accomodate the highest birthrate levels in our population, despite there being absolutely no work in the middle of nowhere.

So I have mixed feelings. Why? Because I am a worker, always have been and always will be. It was how I was raised, to either 'fish, or cut bait'. Some people are 'takers', expecting handouts as their right and due entitlement. When I shrink the concept of society to a village of , let's say, 40 people, and imbue it with these support systems of mincome, whatever, it looks a bit different. If that village has some families in tough circumstances, then we would share food and help them with housing. BUT, said village would not be able to do this without some kind of contributrion in return. The receivers would/should have to gather firewood, or herd, weed, be a lookout, whatever...to keep the village unit functional. I think it should be the same with a mincome situation. Call it workfare, whatever, but a member of any group has obligations to return the support in kind. If someone is truly disabled, then so be it...we help them. But if someone accepts the guaranteed support then guarantees work both ways. They need to be able to contribute for their own sense of worth and well-being as well as to support 'the group'. It may be in the future, but everyone needs to contribute to the whole in a fair and transparent way.

There is no room for straight up takers and users. Everyone needs to contribute to their ability to do so, and when it is time to receive, (like our single-payer medical system), well then there it is, take, and go back into life with restored health.

regards

[Cog]

Howdy Cog ... is that a community stash of ammo or just a private collection ? ... I always chuckle when folks talk about stacking gold for when things come unglued !

curlyq3

that is a private collection. not mine unfortunately. I have seen a private collection larger than that one

[curlyq3]

Howdy Cog ... I was thinking of using a shipping container for storage ... get a decent one and maybe use a pond liner over it for extra protection from moisture ... then cover it over with a lot of earth to insulate and protect the contents from temperature extremes ... then fill it up with the most common stuff ... a forty footer filled would be a lot of barter when things come unglued ... thankfully where I am at here in Kanab UT there is very little problem with the "other tribes" issue ... there is only one tribe out here and it makes life a lot easier ... this is a hard target area ... I think it would take artillery to take this town !

curlyq3

[Ibon]

I put Cog and Seagypsy as representatives of opposite extremes of strategy. Cog's strategy is of the porcupine, hunkering down, sticking out spines of defense. Sea Gypsy more footloose and flexible about place and work, less reliant on physical fortress, more reliant on savy social interactions.

[curlyq3]

Howdy Ibon ... regarding strategies for a peaceful existence ... to be as independent and free as possible to live a chosen lifestyle ... strong and united in efforts to avoid tyranny ... and with any luck, living in an environment where your limited resources will not be used up defending these principles ... it is human nature to be predatory and aggressive when we become hungry and uncomfortable ... it is always wise to avoid the conflict when possible ... but be prepared to never be the victim

curlyq3

[Newfie]

Curly,

Those seem like good principals. As Ibon said folks attempt them through very different. At this point there is no telling what the successful strategy, in your place, at your time, will be.

Like it or not we will all rely a lot on luck.