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Here Comes The Double Dip Pt. 4 (merged) Archived

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of hydrocarbon depletion.

Here Comes The Double Dip Pt. 4 (merged) Archived

Unread postby mattduke » Wed 30 Jun 2010, 07:58:06

Image
“Based on evidence that has always and only been observed during or immediately prior to U.S. recessions, the U.S. economy appears headed into a second leg of an unusually challenging downturn,” wrote John P. Hussman, President of Hussman Investment Trust on Monday. The fund manager, whom Business Insider notes has been bearish for awhile, made the prediction in a post Monday on his firm’s website bluntly entitled “Recession Warning.”
Mr. Hussman points to a -6.9% decline in the growth rate of the ECRI Weekly Leading Index (see chart below) as the primary cause of his concern.

The stimulus sugar-high is wearing off. The correction continues until the government tries to postpone it again.
http://business.financialpost.com/2010/ ... lyst-warns
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Re: Enter Double Dip, Stage Right

Unread postby Sixstrings » Wed 30 Jun 2010, 08:13:17

From the article you linked:

“Based on evidence that has always and only been observed during or immediately prior to U.S. recessions, the U.S. economy appears headed into a second leg of an unusually challenging downturn,” wrote John P. Hussman, President of Hussman Investment Trust on Monday. The fund manager, whom Business Insider notes has been bearish for awhile, made the prediction in a post Monday on his firm’s website bluntly entitled “Recession Warning.”


Sounds pretty definitive. Really, there can be no recovery in the US economy. The industrial core has been gutted, packed up and shipped to China, a lot of the intellectual labor has gone and is going to India, we're shipping in foreign workers to do those jobs we haven't yet shipped out, all while the bankster class makes out like bandits -- for them a US jobs recovery is irrelevant, so long as there is someplace in the world where they can put their capital to work.

But for working slobs, well, they're in trouble.
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Re: Enter Double Dip, Stage Right

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Wed 30 Jun 2010, 13:14:15

In the early stages of this recession (fall 2008), firms panicked. They saw every leading indicator falling off a cliff so they assumed a Great Depression level event was coming. As a result, they slashed production and laid off workers by the millions.

Now that the situation has stabilized, they are rebuilding inventory and hiring back some of the key personnel that had been fired.

The problem is that the next phase of the business cycle, the recovery, hasn't happened yet.

Firms are producing just enough product to meet current demand. They don't see the need to expand because capacity utilization is still so far below historical averages.

The bigger problem is that much of that capacity is geared towards making products and offering services that no one wants.

We have nearly 3 million unemployed construction workers. In order for these people to be put back to work, we would need to start building new houses at 2006 levels. That's just not going to happen any time soon. We are constructing new homes at below-trend rates, but a return to the historical average still means at least 2 million extra residential construction workers with nothing to do.

Image

Unfortunately, 2006 level construction was a complete aberration. We simply do not need so many construction workers. Thus, they will never be re-hired as roofers, plumbers, landscapers, drywallers, etc. Their skills just aren't needed and won't be for many years.

The number of licensed real estate agents in California doubled from 200,000 to 400,000 between 2000 and 2007 while the overall population increased only around 7%.

Again, those extra 200,000 real estate agents just aren't needed anymore. So long as they continue trying to work in the industry, they will continue driving down profits and making it even harder for the industry to survive.

Lastly, look at US auto sales:

Image

The new normal is roughly 12-14 million cars sold in the US every year. But we have the capacity to sell 20 million!

That means thousands of car salesmen and auto workers must be laid off because their skills are no longer needed.

With Peak Oil, we should expect to see an even greater decline in car sales as people swap over to public transportation and carpooling. We might only need 10 million cars a year next decade and most of those will be low-margin but highly fuel efficient hybrid sedans.
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Re: Enter Double Dip, Stage Right

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 30 Jun 2010, 13:27:51

How about: Enter another Great Depression, Stage Right. :arrow:
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Re: Enter Double Dip, Stage Right

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 30 Jun 2010, 13:36:37

Let me guess Plant.

Rather than a consequence of general entropic decline, specifically a paucity of fossil fuels, healthy fisheries, clean water, arable land and now planetary sinks (you know----places to dump our crap) . . . .

. . . . and an overabundance of stupid greedy Republicans . . .

the Greater World Depression is all Obama's fault :badgrin:
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Re: Enter Double Dip, Stage Right

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 30 Jun 2010, 15:03:50

pstarr wrote:Let me guess ... the Greater World Depression is all Obama's fault


Don't give up hope for a recovery just yet, Pstar.

It was just two weeks ago that Obama was boasting that his "stimulus" plan had saved the world economy
and everything was going along great.

Who knows....maybe obama's much-ballyhooed "green shoots" really are a sign that everything in the economy
is going great again! :roll:

The global economy is premised on expansion, where what we face is contraction
---Colin Campbell (2012)
Unfortunately, the Fed can't print oil
---Ben Bernanke (2011)
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Re: Enter Double Dip, Stage Right

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 30 Jun 2010, 15:09:29

Or maybe Obama's green shoots have already died.

June jobs numbers are coming in terrible for the private sector, providing more evidence the weak recovery is
already faltering. private sector jobs disappoint for June

The global economy is premised on expansion, where what we face is contraction
---Colin Campbell (2012)
Unfortunately, the Fed can't print oil
---Ben Bernanke (2011)
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Re: Enter Double Dip, Stage Right

Unread postby Pops » Wed 30 Jun 2010, 19:36:58

Good post JC.

You can add in all sorts of just regular jobs, in housing there are appraisers, inspectors, title/escrow people; don't forget revenues to newspaper and specialty RE publications, outdoor and electronic advertising.

Same with automobiles, don't forget, entire brands are gone, never to return. Of course not every brand had a store, Chevy/Cad/Buick all under one roof but many stores were shut completely. I do a little work for a dealer who had 7 or 8 lines and 3 stores 3 years ago - now 1 location and 3 lines.

Between cars and houses (and all the sides - furniture, decorating, custom accessories) you pretty well cover 75% of local advertising revenues - so many ad sales reps I know are on the street. At least the corporations now have the constitutional right to spend as much as they want - thanks to the Bush League SCOTUS so the mid-terms should be profitable for News Corp anyway.

Anyway, with stimulus running out, inventory level recovered, unemployment insurance canceled, adjustable mortgages resetting...

Its starting to look like a bouncing kitty.

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Re: Enter Double Dip, Stage Right

Unread postby mattduke » Wed 30 Jun 2010, 21:46:52

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Re: Enter Double Dip, Stage Right

Unread postby Tyler_JC » Wed 30 Jun 2010, 21:47:54

Image

In many ways, this is the most important graph of the recession.

It shows that the average length of unemployment has hit a record high.

It's not so much the number of people out of work (although that number is pretty awful too), it's the length of unemployment that makes this recession different.

We're talking about several million formerly productive people whose careers have been shattered.
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Re: Enter Double Dip, Stage Right

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 30 Jun 2010, 22:13:51

If we are actually going into a double dip recession, we'll see the number of new jobless claims going up again in 3-6 months.......

Image

The global economy is premised on expansion, where what we face is contraction
---Colin Campbell (2012)
Unfortunately, the Fed can't print oil
---Ben Bernanke (2011)
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Re: Enter Double Dip, Stage Right

Unread postby careinke » Thu 01 Jul 2010, 00:53:30

The census workers in my county are going from 1,500 to 250 this week. Then in two weeks probably down to 20 or so. This is happening all across the country so unemployment figures should be up this next week.

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A double dip recession if we're lucky.

Unread postby Cyrus » Mon 11 Apr 2011, 13:14:03

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Re: A double dip recession if we're lucky.

Unread postby Daniel_Plainview » Mon 11 Apr 2011, 13:38:31

Consumer confidence is weaker today on average than at the lowest point of the Great Recession.


Unfortunately, Robert Reich fails to connect the dots with respect to peak oil. Once we begin the descent from the current PO undulating plateau, it's "game over." Once this descent happens irrevocably, the concepts of "recession" and "depression" will need to be rewritten ... and Robert Reich's focus on a "double dip" will be tantamount to reshuffling the chairs on the deck of the Titanic.
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Re: A double dip recession if we're lucky.

Unread postby Sixstrings » Mon 11 Apr 2011, 14:05:24

Why aren't Americans being told the truth about the economy? We're heading in the direction of a double dip -- but you'd never know it if you listened to the upbeat messages coming out of Wall Street and Washington.


Well Robert Reich says all the right things now, but what about when he was in the Clinton Administration? Maybe he should have spoken up then, when the nails were being driven into the coffin with all of Clinton's globalist free trading and far worse -- repeal of Glass–Steagall.

Maybe Reich feels guilty. Another one, Paul Craig Roberts.. that guy is brilliant, he knows what all the problems are with this economy, yet did he have anything to say while working for Reagan?

Just a little annoying, how these guys come to Jesus many years *after* they were in a position to prevent the whole damn thing.
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Re: A double dip recession if we're lucky.

Unread postby Oneaboveall » Mon 11 Apr 2011, 18:47:04

Sixstrings wrote:Just a little annoying, how these guys come to Jesus many years *after* they were in a position to prevent the whole damn thing.

I wonder if there's anything they really could have done even though they were in power. It seems that once the "fix is in", if you will, plans will be proceeded with no matter what is said.
When the banksters want something, our policymakers move with the speed of Mercury and the determination of Ares. It’s only when the rest of us need something that there is paralysis.
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Re: A double dip recession if we're lucky.

Unread postby Lore » Mon 11 Apr 2011, 19:13:45

Back in the Clinton era things were going gangbusters and we had a surplus. So, naturally everyone thought the party would last forever. I knew Reich back then, as labor secretary, and his message really hasn't changed.

I’ve read Reich’s recent book, Aftershock: The Next Economy and America's Future, and he is pretty spot on about most of his assesments. I highly recommend the book.

Putting Peak Oil, Global Warming, or any other major monkey wrench into the equation of course changes any prediction for the future. In which, case all bets are off.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
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Re: A double dip recession if we're lucky.

Unread postby Pops » Tue 12 Apr 2011, 07:17:08

Yea, I read Aftershock a couple of months ago and recommend it as well.

Clinton griped because there was nothing going on during his time in office so he had no situation to allow him to be a great president. Turns out his was really the apex presidency. The bankers thought their algorithms had created the perfectly efficient market ending the 'business cycle' – so the argument went, what was the need for regulation?

But come 2000 we had the big tax giveaway, then a couple of highly profitable re-emptive oil wars and finally the socialization of the FIRE economy's bad gambling debt. So now, (I hate to say "as planned" but it is just so tempting) surprise, surprise, it turns out we're in the hole and need to cut out wasteful social spending.

This is "starving the beast".

Krugman from a year ago:
...
Republicans would push through popular tax cuts, with the deliberate intention of worsening the government's fiscal position. Spending cuts could then be sold as a necessity rather than a choice, the only way to eliminate an unsustainable budget deficit.

And the deficit came. True, more than half of this year's budget deficit is the result of the Great Recession, which has both depressed revenues and required a temporary surge in spending to contain the damage. But even when the crisis is over, the budget will remain deeply in the red, largely as a result of George W. Bush-era tax cuts and unfunded wars. In addition, the combination of an aging population and rising medical costs will, unless something is done, lead to explosive debt growth after 2020.

So the beast is starving, as planned.
...
Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10054/10 ... z1JJJBiV6U
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Re: A double dip recession if we're lucky.

Unread postby Fishman » Tue 12 Apr 2011, 08:45:49

Sorry Pops, though Krugman was doing his usual rant, that tiny part of him that is still an economist had to slip in this line
"combination of an aging population and rising medical costs will, unless something is done, lead to explosive debt growth"
The wars and all the banking problems, though serious, are pennies on the dollar compared to demographics. On reflection Krug probably wished he hadn't added that line. It destroys his prior argument. and the fact of the demographics is an anathema to the left. And its not 2020, its now, with oil running out.
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Re: A double dip recession if we're lucky.

Unread postby Pops » Tue 12 Apr 2011, 09:18:20

Demographics aren't optional, the tax cuts and wars were.
“Quite simply, we are looking at the highest average price since the age of oil began.”
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