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THE Silver & Gold Thread (merged)

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

THE Silver & Gold Thread (merged)

Unread postby rumble » Mon 28 Jan 2008, 02:45:36

Hi, I am sure there is another thread somewhere that asks these questions, but i can't find it. If you know the link to one, please post it for me and I will go there. Please forgive me for my ignorance about this, it is why I am asking the intelligent people of PO.com:

I have read enough to know that I need gold and silver rounds, some everyday cash out of the bank, other cash spent out building up supplies, and the rest out of us dollars. Right? Here is the thing, I only have around 10,000 cash. Yes, you saw that right. I am a thirty year old Branch Manager at a credit union with a artist husband. Considering I have so little money, I am wondering what should come first and how that changes things. Let me say. I do have 6 months of canned foods and stored pastas to eat. I have emergency bug out bags ready to go at the door and in the cars.I figure my 401k is pretty much toast, but I did move everything over to money market funds 2 weeks ago.

Since we live in an apartment, we can't get our garden going. (yes, they told us we had to stop) and we want to get off the grid. I don't want to start purchasing any land or homes right now since i am so uncertain about what the next few years will hold. So I am wanting to get a diesel pusher and run it on veggie fuel.

ANyways, I don't know if I am asking for reassurance that I am thinking the right things (probably a little bit), but i am mainly asking for suggestions, feedback - aka advice.

Thanks for your patience!
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Re: Cash, Gold, Silver, Motorhome?

Unread postby AQIUS » Mon 28 Jan 2008, 06:04:30

I've given a lot of thought regarding transportation issues in a post-crash situation. I know not to expect to cruise down the road in some carefree manner in my vehicle if things fall apart, because someone, somewhere will try to take it. I think that there will be so many unprepared people that will be armed, desperate, & quite willing to take your vehicle, by force if necessary. Not to mention all the many self-important officials, (goverment, military, police, firefighters & the like), who will commandeer any running vehicle in the name of whatever institution or cause they deem more important than your personal property rights. You WILL lose yer vehicle by robbery on the open road!

As a perfect example in the remake of War Of The Worlds, Tom Cruise was driving one of the last running vans slowly through shell-shocked crowds, but then he made the mistake of coming to a stop & that is when desperate armed people took his van away by force.

I personally own a small motor scooter, a motorcycle, and a small gas saver car among my fleet of transport, w. some inground gas tanks hidden away. I figure to lose the vehicle to highway thugs sooner or later but hope to be nimble enough on the motorized cycle to keep it for awhile . . . and will save it for important runs.

I also went out & bought many bicycles, large & small, with compressors, hand pumps, and spare parts, so if petrol transportation gets scarce then I can at least stay mobile. Of course anyone who has something of value is at risk of getting robbed by force in tough times . . be it owning cars, scooters, or just bicycles !

Anyway, this is all worst-case scenario, but you just have to look at what happened in Argentina during their economic crisis to realize it could happen.

Hope my response helps with a few viewpoints. take care.
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Re: Cash, Gold, Silver, Motorhome?

Unread postby mos6507 » Mon 28 Jan 2008, 06:44:09

There will be no shortage of vehicles in the future, just a shortage of fuel. If anything, there will be a glut of vehicles, but a lot of siphoning of gas tanks.

When it comes to true end of the world stuff I don't think there is any way to totally steer clear of danger outside of maybe living in the arctic or out to sea, which for most of us would not be worth the tradeoff.
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Re: Cash, Gold, Silver, Motorhome?

Unread postby jlw61 » Mon 28 Jan 2008, 10:44:33

I too am a little behind the game as far as resources are concerned but I've done a lot of reading and thinking over the past year. I believe purchasing a few months supplies is the first step.

Getting out of debt while learning to garden and make plans are the next steps. Can you grow in containers? Even that small step will teach you a lot. Can you hang decorative pots or window boxes? Anything to get an uderstanding of what it takes to successfully grow things will help. Take classes at the very least.

A cash reserve in gold and silver is good, though I'm not a believer in large quantities of either because of how people would tend to react if they see you with either in any quantity after a collapse. Jewelry MAY make more sense, but I really haven't thought out the precious metals issue beyond the "need a few ounces" stage.

Learning skills including gun safety and reloading are very important. If you don't "believe" in guns, then plan on living amongst people who do and who like you. Otherwise you will be moving around a lot, until some gov entity makes a decision on the rest of your life, post peak.

If you don't want to live where you are at post-peak then a large scale bug out plan with a safer location as a destination is the final step. My conclusion is that an RV or motorhome (though that purchase is at least a year away for me) is a absolute must for a number of reasons.

1- I honestly believe we have at least 5-10 years before the S totally HTF and roads become unsafe or the gov starts confiscating property.

2- I have a desire to see a number of places in North America before fuel goes past $6 a gallon (under $6/g an RV at 10mpg costs less than a 30mpg car & $75 hotel every night).

3- I telecommute so a properly equipped RV will allow me to go many places without burning vacation time and an RV can be set up just-so where a hotel is as-is.

4- I have several places I can go when the SHTF and will be at one of them BEFORE it happens.

5- If there is a sudden overnight collapse I can have an RV packed and in a safer location in less than 24 hours which is the minimum amount of time before people start to panic from "market news".

6- Depending on where you live, how patient you are and how far you're willing to travel to pick up a deal, you can get some fabulous buys on older units that are in great working condition.

7- The right older RV can have extra fuel tanks mounted to give it a much better range. An older deisel is easier to fuel via biofuel than an older gas unit but that's assuming you want to drive anywhere post peak. When I get to my safer location, the RV will be sold or used as a climate controled storage facility (as long as the electricity lasts).

8- The right RV setup provides fantastic carrying capacity. While I am not an expert I am looking at the various options between a motorhome, standard trailer and 5th wheel. Lots of good points on each type of solution.

Also, consider that you may not have to bug out. A sudden collapse would tend to make me head for the hills where as a slow collapse would tend to allow people to make adjustments. Again, it depends on your location and where you desire to be after gas prices zoom beyond $10 a gallon. A sudden collapse will give you 24-48 hours of safety while most people try to decide how to react and law enforcement is still coherent. If you have adequate warning due to a slow collapse then the big thing is to be mentally ready and willing to go when it's time. Don't wait for the last minute because you probably won't make it.

Finally, should you get caught with your pants down in a bad situation (such as the Katrina disaster or worse), abandon everything except your family and the BOBs and get the hell out of Dodge. The RV and amenities of a past life mean nothing if you are dead. Plan B is the family car with BOBs and a few extra clothes, C is public transport, D is bicycles and E is on foot.

God forbid you need plan Z which is "leave no witnesses."
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Re: Cash, Gold, Silver, Motorhome?

Unread postby azreal60 » Tue 29 Jan 2008, 00:53:40

Here's my thoughts on this subject. Basically, where are these hills that everyone says they will head too? Have you seen America people? I mean, we probably have more untouched land than anyone in the developed countries, and still, there's a person for almost every livable square mile. That of course is exageration, but seriously, where do you people think your going to go that's magically under populated. Those nice under populated places that existed even 10 years ago? They are all gone. There is no hills anymore except maybe in Canada or South America. And the hills in South America aren't exactly what I'd call safe from other humans either. But the idea of getting to your own safe point in the US, I'm sorry, but if it really hits the fan that bad, it ain't going to be in the US that your safe.

There's a reason why in the Terminator 2 extension books, they hid out in Alaska and Canada after Judgement day. It wasn't just because Canada didn't get nuked. It was because there was alot less people up there. Fiction of course, but the point stands.
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Re: Cash, Gold, Silver, Motorhome?

Unread postby frankthetank » Tue 29 Jan 2008, 01:01:57

Funny thing. Tonite i was at superwalmarto and in the parking lot was a motorhome (they were "camping"). Its 40F out and suppose to be -13F tomorrow night. I'd like to go back there and see how its going when -13F rolls around.

It would be fun to throw a little woodstove in one and just drive to a tree, jump out with an electric chainsaw, drop the tree, cut the logs up and throw them in the motorhome and squeal away! Good for a couple days. Too bad the motorhome would probably melt!!!

Only safe place to "hide" is in a well stocked sailboat on the open ocean.

This is why these super rich billionaires have cruse ship sized yachts with helicopters and submarines. When the shit goes down, they can take to the seas and escape just about anything, plus have ANOTHER means to escape, should they have to (extra boats, submarine, even a helicopter).
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Re: Cash, Gold, Silver, Motorhome?

Unread postby manu » Tue 29 Jan 2008, 01:28:03

Forget the motorhome. Too big a target. A good bike is better. Buy a gold chain so you have it in small pieces to trade with. Better if you don't have alot is to buy silver coins. Get a good knife and flint. Also a canteen for water. Get as far away from any big city as possible. Backpacks and tents would also be good. As you can see, panic has now set in on the stock markets, party's over, turn out the light's.
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Re: Cash, Gold, Silver, Motorhome?

Unread postby jlw61 » Tue 29 Jan 2008, 10:58:40

In my text, I tried to provide a basic framework for preparing oneself for all PO scenarios save a nuclear exchange. While I could have gone on with a very long text explaining every detail, I usually give the broad strokes and wait for someone to ask for details. However, when I see that there were some replies to which I feel like responding in an effort to advance the conversation.

azreal60 wrote:Basically, where are these hills that everyone says they will head too?


I'm sorry, but Head-For-The-Hills, like Get-Out-Of-Dodge is an Americanism for "Leave now, don't bother packing." It is not meant to be a literal instruction. I'm sorry if you did not pick that up.

azreal60 wrote:... but seriously, where do you people think your going to go that's magically under populated.


I said nothing about underpopulated or vacant land (though there is plenty). What I did say was:

jlw61 wrote:If you don't want to live where you are at post-peak then a large scale bug out plan with a safer location as a destination is the final step.


And I followed it up with:

jlw61 wrote:Also, consider that you may not have to bug out. A sudden collapse would tend to make me head for the hills where as a slow collapse would tend to allow people to make adjustments. Again, it depends on your location and where you desire to be after gas prices zoom beyond $10 a gallon.


As you can see, I clearly indicate finding a <i>safer</i> location if <b>rumble</b> feels the need. Like <b>rumble</b>, I'm not sure I want to be where I currently reside post peak but long before the SHTF I will have lost my really good paying tech support job and taken all of my PO skills elsewhere. An RV will help me tremendously in this regard as I clearly stated:

jlw61 wrote:I honestly believe we have at least 5-10 years ...


During this time an RV will give me and mine vast amounts of flexibility in our options for vacation, educational and planning for the future along with the ability to quickly move the small number of things I wish to keep without the expense, hassle or worry of an available U-Haul.

azreal60 wrote:I'm sorry, but if it really hits the fan that bad, it ain't going to be in the US that your safe.


I'm sorry you feel that way. I think you'll find the American people are quite capable, and perhaps more so than some, to handle peak oil. Like any country I expect there to be local riots and problems that will be quite terrible, however I have faith in its people. After all, Americans don't routinely burn down neighborhoods after a sporting event nor do we tend to kill players that accidently make goals for the opposite team or kill refs that make a bad call. We're quite forgiving when someone isn't intentionally trying to do us harm and even after some time, we tend to forgive those that attack us without warning.

azreal60 wrote:There's a reason why in the Terminator 2 extension books, they hid out in Alaska and Canada after Judgement day.


While I have gleaned a lot of insight and knowledge from fiction, I certainly do not think that it's worthy of use in an argument. I tend to look up such assertions should they peak my interest and use the other sources for reference. There's a reason it's called <b>fiction</b>. Besides, while Alaska is fairly nice along the SW coast, it is brutal and isolated in the interior and I certainly think that few would find it livable. Same with Canada. I love some of the areas I've visited, but would certainly not be too interested in anything very far north nor in central the plains where there is nothing but horizon and cold biting winds during the winter. My desire is to live my remaining days, should PO occur sooner than later, in relative comfort and security while providing for future generations.




manu wrote:Forget the motorhome. Too big a target. A good bike is better. Buy a gold chain so you have it in small pieces to trade with.


While this is a good plan C or D and has merit should <b>rumble</b> get caught unprepared, I certainly would not want it to be plan A. Thanks, but being a Road Warrior dependent upon finding gasoline (or using plan Z noted in previous msg) every 150 miles with my wife in the side car and everyting I own stuffed into a tiny trailer does <i>not</i> appeal to me. I own a motorcycle and have plans should it be needed. Plan A does include the motorcycle, but it will be stowed on a trailer behind the RV.

manu wrote:Better if you don't have alot is to buy silver coins. Get a good knife and flint. Also a canteen for water. Get as far away from any big city as possible. Backpacks and tents would also be good.


Again, good advice if you are caught in a disaster with nothing but a BOB and very basic transportation. A light pack that allows you to make 20+ miles a day is better than a heavy food laden pack that limits you to less than 10. In a disaster, those that can move fastest and farthest usally fair best.

manu wrote:As you can see, panic has now set in on the stock markets, party's over, turn out the light's.


Here you lost me. What panic? I don't see people screaming down the streets, nor do I see people doing much of anything other than grumbling about their 401ks taking a hit. The market is not plunging and if I knew ANYONE I trusted saying that I should get out of the market, I would consider cashing out. However, I am sitting tight and seriously thinking about buying should another down event occur.

The DOW has yet to stay below where it was a year ago. And I certainly would not consider it in a panic unless it drops below the 10,000 mark in the next month. I believe capitalism works pretty well when government does not interfere too much and control of the market does not rest with too few.

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Re: Cash, Gold, Silver, Motorhome?

Unread postby rumble » Thu 31 Jan 2008, 23:02:42

Thanks for the feedback! There are so many things that one person can't think of just by his/herself, but with many opinions I can look at possible flaws and decide how to overcome them before they happen. (Chance/luck favors the prepared)

jlw61 - I think you get what I'm going for! It is not like I want a motorhome to just go riding down the road cruising around while all hell breaks loose.

We were thinking motorhome because no matter where we have to go or what happens- we will have a home. See, I have a three year old, and we have to make sure that we will have shelter.

The motorhome is something I could pay off easily if I wasn't paying rent and I could get away from the general population with ease. The perfect scenario would have us up in the northern part of Canada before things went to shit here.

I am in survalist mode here. I am a positive doomer. Besides the economy, peak-oil, global warming, and every other catastrophe at our feet - we have a government that has been taking away our rights and signing orders that state in an economical crisis - the president becomes a dictator. HR 1955 takes away our right to present a logical argument against the government. This shit is real, it is not conspiracy theory.

So - I can't buy land or a house because as soon as I do that -
1. I am in serious debt
2. I am tied to it
3. Everyone knows where I am to come seize it

I can't keep living in an apartment because
1. Cost will keep rising
2. Isn't mine
3. Tied to one place
4. Everyone knows where I am to come steal

The only thing I can think of is motorhome that runs on veggie fuel with food storage, some guns, seeds and plants to start a garden when I get to the "hills", bikes, etc.....

Right now, with gas prices and the foreclosures we are seeing more and more people trying to get rid of their motorhomes (most consider this a luxury item) We are seeing some great deals.
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Re: Cash, Gold, Silver, Motorhome?

Unread postby rumble » Thu 31 Jan 2008, 23:21:23

oh yeah - I am in total agreement with boats, too! I don't own one but I have made arrangements with a family member sailor. :)
That is just if I can't make it on land, though.
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Re: Cash, Gold, Silver, Motorhome?

Unread postby PrairieMule » Fri 01 Feb 2008, 17:15:07

I'd say no to the motor home. Motor homes are not built to last. You are better off buying a aluminum shed for a few grand vs 10-20 times that amount on a RV. It will last longer. Seriously, we put Kenco aluminum shed on some Arkansas property in 1974. It's still there. Save your

If being mobile is your aim, you can outfit a family of 4 with some good camping gear for $500 to $1000. If you are not on the move so much drop some cash on canvas shelter and a wood stove. Then google "Stealth Camping" or "Commando Camping".

That's just my opinion. BTW-Tip of the hat for having 6 mo worth of food tucked away.
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Re: Cash, Gold, Silver, Motorhome?

Unread postby PrairieMule » Fri 01 Feb 2008, 17:30:27

rumble wrote:
ANyways, I don't know if I am asking for reassurance that I am thinking the right things (probably a little bit), but i am mainly asking for suggestions, feedback - aka advice.

Thanks for your patience!


It's very easy to be overwhelmed.

Learn to eat the Elephant one bite at a time. There is just no other way to deal. Lots of scared folks evolve into self sufficient type with their shit together. I have seen it happen over and over in the time I have been here.

Also, don't be afraid to give yourself a day off from "Doom". Just walk away for a day or two. You will be more productive long term.
If you give a man a fish you will have kept him from hunger for a day. If you teach a man to fish he will sit in a boat and drink beer all day.
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Re: Cash, Gold, Silver, Motorhome?

Unread postby BigTex » Fri 01 Feb 2008, 18:31:33

Remember, too, that fear is not typically the basis for good strategic decision making.

Fear will provide you with an excellent fight or flight response, but if flight causes you to get trampled as everyone runs for the exit at the same time, following the fear response may not be the best approach.

Too many doom scenarios envision a rapid collapse. To my knowledge, however, a rapid collapse that hits the entire society simultaneously is VERY RARE. Consider preparing for the scenarios that are more likely, and in which guns, gold and a motorhome might not be especially useful (although RV camping is fun, even if the world doesn't end).

The fact is travelling is expensive and if everyone is travelling it will be even more expensive. Most people will probably do better to stay home (unless home is under water or on fire).

Your plan feels a little too thrown together to me. Rather than taking any further action right now, if I were you I would maybe go take a few Yoga classes, read some good escapist fiction, and let your doom concerns SIMMER in your mind for a while. Trust me, the world probably won't end in the next few days. You may find that after stepping away from the topic, even for a few days or weeks, that your decision making and thinking on the topic will be clearer and less emotional.

If you must focus on end of the world scenarios, study past collapses and draw lessons from them. The best personal preparation should probably be more focused on preparing the mind than in outfitting the bunker (though I must admit it can be a lot of fun getting together the TEOTWAWKI gear).
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Re: Cash, Gold, Silver, Motorhome?

Unread postby deMolay » Fri 01 Feb 2008, 22:35:27

If it was me, I would scout out somewhere warm, like the desert in the SW on public land, that had a good water source, and round up some camo, tow a small trailer with a quad or two. Be sure to be armed.
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Re: Cash, Gold, Silver, Motorhome?

Unread postby BigTex » Fri 01 Feb 2008, 22:52:28

deMolay wrote:If it was me, I would scout out somewhere warm, like the desert in the SW on public land, that had a good water source, and round up some camo, tow a small trailer with a quad or two. Be sure to be armed.


Isn't that the area that people will be fleeing?

"Phoenix is dead!!!", et al.
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Re: Cash, Gold, Silver, Motorhome?

Unread postby katkinkate » Sat 02 Feb 2008, 03:24:39

I like the motor home idea. You can live in it on the outskirts of town - rent-free or at lower rent than an appartment. Or you might be able to stay in a friend's back yard? Ride bikes in to work or to where you can get public transport and save lots of money. If you don't have to move your camp too often you won't need to drive much, but you have mobility and can take all your stash if you do need to move. If the economy bubbles along for a while yet, you might be able to save enough to buy a small piece of land outright, to grow stuff and you have an instant home to put on it - debt-free.

I've been thinking of doing something similar, myself. But I plan to quit my job first and buy a small campervan, or a second-hand delivery van and throw a matress and camp gear in the back. Use it to travel a bit to visit far-flung family for maybe a last time then visit the 3 areas I've picked out I would most like to live for the rest of my life and I'll look for cheap land I can buy outright with my small savings and investments (if gold keeps climbing I might have enough soon). Then camp on the land till I can either move a small house onto it or build (probably cob or strawbale). The campervan frees me from the high rent environment.

Then I'll need to find a part-time job or make something to sell. That last bit needs figuring out before I commit myself to the plan however.
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Re: Cash, Gold, Silver, Motorhome?

Unread postby rumble » Thu 14 Feb 2008, 04:13:10

Welp - I found a dodge truck already converted for biodiesel and veggie oil! (gotta love California) and I have been looking at some great 5th wheels.

Found a place to visit and check out that looks like it might be for me.

Should be outta here by the end of May! Thank god - I have been trying to get stuff together for so long now it seems. It is nice to start seeing things come together.

I'm going to be buying guns. I haven't been able to reach my grandpa to ask him, but I was wondering if any of you guys have some good suggestions. I'm thinking a handgun and a shotgun. Kimber is expensive as hell, but I hear it is the best. Is this true?
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Re: Cash, Gold, Silver, Motorhome?

Unread postby goldsilverangel » Sat 29 Mar 2008, 08:24:27

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Re: Cash, Gold, Silver, Motorhome?

Unread postby jlw61 » Sat 29 Mar 2008, 09:28:17

rumble wrote:Welp - I found a dodge truck already converted for biodiesel and veggie oil! (gotta love California) and I have been looking at some great 5th wheels.

Found a place to visit and check out that looks like it might be for me.

Should be outta here by the end of May! Thank god - I have been trying to get stuff together for so long now it seems. It is nice to start seeing things come together.

I'm going to be buying guns. I haven't been able to reach my grandpa to ask him, but I was wondering if any of you guys have some good suggestions. I'm thinking a handgun and a shotgun. Kimber is expensive as hell, but I hear it is the best. Is this true?


Glad to hear things are coming together!

I would always consider 3 guns, a rifle, a shotgun, and a pistol.

For food gathering, a Ruger 10/22 semi-auto .22 caliber is a must for small game! You want to have some meat left on that rabbit and the shells are really inexpensive. Get several bricks of .22 caliber shells (my suggestion is at least 4 bricks - 2000 shells). Plus it's a great first gun for kids to learn about shooting and gun safety. I can't stress this one enough.

For a shotgun I prefer something common like the Remington 870 pump shotgun which is inexpensive, readily available, lasts forever, and if parts are needed they are easy to obtain. Mount a slug barrel for defence but keep the long barrel for hunting small game. If the kick of a 12 ga is too hard to be comfortable or if you have younger kids that you want to teach, try a .410 single shot shotgun. While there are "in-between" sizes, I really like the .410 because you can usually use the .45 long in the same gun.

For a pistol, that's more of a personal choice and needs to be a caliber that is easy for you to handle. A 9mm is a very common caliber and nearly anyone can handle the recoil. A ruger is built like a tank while sigs and glocks are just plain sweet. I would suggest not going below a .380 auto or above a .41. While the 44 magnum is a REALLY powerful gun, in the best of conditions it will hurt your eardrums and try to break you wrist. The exception to my "no big caliber rule" is the .45 auto which is another nice caliber on the large side. My favorite pistol here is the AMT longslide or the 1911.

If you have to have a rifle with some reach, seriously consider the .223 or .308 calibers. The 30/06 is a fine caliber but has a bit of a kick. The .243 is also a great caliber but is much less common in many areas.

However, if I had to choose two from my collection and did not have to worry about zombi hordes, I'd probably end up with a .357 security six and my .357 lever action rifle. Using that combo I can carry just one type of shell and would expect to be able to "pick up" anything else I need using them.

BTW, each adult should have a pistol and holster and each child should have access to a .22 rifle.
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Re: Cash, Gold, Silver, Motorhome?

Unread postby azreal60 » Sat 29 Mar 2008, 10:05:19

A while back JLW61 you made comments on this thread that I didn't see because I took someone else's advice. I took about a month off from doom, mostly because I was working 80 hours a week. Now that this unhappy state is being corrected, I'm getting back into doom, but with a twist.

I think perhaps you misunderstood some of what I was saying, and took some of what I was saying as aimed at you.

In reverse order;

I fully understood that the Terminator 2 books where works of fiction. But sometimes in fiction there are points made that apply in real life thru simple logic. I don't hear alot of people now adays saying there is land in a good sopt to build that is readily available like they did back in the 70's. Most of the get back to the land books that we regularly look to for ways to homestead give getting land strategies that don't work nearly as well if at all simply because alot more people exist now than then. We could argue the point back and forth, but the simple matter is this. Short of moving well away from any kind of currently available job other than park ranger, there is very little open land that would be useful post peak available now, and a much greater group of people looking for it. That doesn't mean that it can't be had, just that it's much much harder to find.

I'm also not advising you live in Alaska or even Canada honestly. Although if global warming really follows thru, Canada may become more and more of a good idea.

On the subject of America, I know that many people in America are capable. I happen to live there, and while I tend to be on the gloomy side on America as a whole's prospects, I sure plan to survive peak oil. I think the key to my statement is if your looking for Safety, you may want to reconsider that expectation. I think people shouldn't expect safety, and should be prepared for it not being available simply by location. I've seen too many plans that end with evacing to a safe location, and I wanted to disuade anyone of assuming that their new location will be safe. Instead, deal with having the skills to live in an unsafe area, and soon just you and others like you being in the area will Make it safe. It just takes time.

I happen to have a very positive view of how America will survive peak oil. I just think there's alot more shock coming then even most of this board can believe, and when it happens, no one is really prepared. I was trying to prepare Rumble for that idea with a little shaking speech. IMHO, it's better to aquire skills that may be useful than the materials they need. The materials will likely be something your going to pick up as you go. The skills are much more long term investments, and can't be picked up as well on the go. There are exceptions to this rule, many of them, but by and large it stands up.

Over all though, your critique of what I said I wanted to compliment. I see too few Reasoned critiques on the internet. Your's was well thought out, and while I disagree with some of it, the rest made me think. Always the sign of a good arguement, it's supposed to actually ADVANCE the knowledge of both arguers.

Peakoilers, take notice of jlw61's example. Pay special attention that he avoided every point where he could have poked me verbally with some sharp remark and simply disagreed politely instead. It turned what could have been 2 pages of basically name calling into a page of actual knowledge. And knowledge people, is the ultimate tool to have.
Azreal60
azreal60
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