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THE Natural Gas Thread Pt. 2

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

The Future of Natural Gas - An Interview with Raymond Learsy

Unread postby Oilguy » Mon 04 Jun 2012, 12:12:10

Massive natural gas discoveries along with new extraction techniques have led many to claim nat gas as the fuel of the future – which could ensure U.S. energy independence, reduce geopolitical risks, and help meet U.S. electricity demands for the next 575 years.
Yet why have we seen so many negative publications and reports? Does natural gas really have a place in our future and is it the golden chalice we have been led to believe?

To help us investigate these issues and others we were fortunate enough to have a chat with the well known author and energy trader Raymond Learsy.

In the Interview Raymond talks about the following:

• Why Natural gas could displace gasoline
• The top 3 forms of energy for national security
• The New York Times Vendetta Against Natural Gas
• Nuclear Energy’s place in America’s energy future
• The future of Fracking
• Why we can’t rely on coal for future power generation

Oilprice.com: What do you think is the link between say the New York Times and some of the concerns in the commodity market?

Raymond Learsy: Well, some of the reporting of the New York Times I feel is weighted too heavily on the fiction that surrounds the pricing of oil. I've written a number of posts, some of which are in my new book, some of which are in my previous book, that deal with the way the New York Times repeats without any serious, in-depth questioning the sort of general handouts of the oil industry and OPEC. For example, if Saudi Arabia says, "Oh, we're having difficulty meeting current demands," there's no insightful discussion of what their potential is, how long they've been sitting on the fence before they expanded their production capability, etc., etc. It's always taken at face value. And then, of course, you have this extraordinary series of articles that came forward earlier in 2011 about natural gas.

For the full interview please visit: http://oilprice.com/Interviews/The-Futu ... earsy.html
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Re: The Future of Natural Gas - An Interview with Raymond Le

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 04 Jun 2012, 12:23:54

Oilguy wrote:Massive natural gas discoveries along with new extraction techniques

• The New York Times Vendetta Against Natural Gas

For the full interview please visit: http://oilprice.com/Interviews/The-Futu ... earsy.html

You have three problems here; 1) horizontal drilling and rock fracturing is not new, 2) New York times does not do vendettas, and 3) you are supposed to include your own thoughts on linked or extracted material.

The future for natural gas remains (at best) a handy peak-load electric generating fuel. At worst just another lousy AGW fossil fuel.
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Re: The Future of Natural Gas - An Interview with Raymond Le

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 04 Jun 2012, 13:38:12

pstarr wrote:
Oilguy wrote:The New York Times Vendetta Against Natural Gas

New York times does not do vendettas


The New York Times ownership is dominated by extremely wealthy people like Carlos Slim of Mexico. They are also closely tied to other parts of the New York corporate elite, including Citigroup and their Saudi money. The NY Times has even given space on its editorial page directly to Saudi Prince Alwaleed.

Of course the NY Times and other parts of the MSM are strongly influenced by their corporate masters, and often push agendas that favor their corporate owners. Call it a vendetta or call it bias----I'm surprised that you don't realize that the NYT and every other part of the MSM has agendas and pushes viewpoints.

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Re: The Future of Natural Gas - An Interview with Raymond Le

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 04 Jun 2012, 14:14:13

Plantagenet wrote:
pstarr wrote:
Oilguy wrote:The New York Times Vendetta Against Natural Gas

New York times does not do vendettas


The New York Times ownership is dominated by extremely wealthy people like Carlos Slim of Mexico. They are also closely tied to other parts of the New York corporate elite, including Citigroup and their Saudi money. The NY Times has even given space on its editorial page directly to Saudi Prince Alwaleed.

Of course the NY Times and other parts of the MSM are strongly influenced by their corporate masters, and often push agendas that favor their corporate owners. Call it a vendetta or call it bias----I'm surprised that you don't realize that the NYT and every other part of the MSM has agendas and pushes viewpoints.
Dude, I am as paranoid as the next Truther per se, but I really don't see a secret cabal of natural-gas enemies, a concerted effort by the Saudi's, Carlos Slim, and Thomas Friedman to bury this story. Seems kind of tin-foily to me.

I hope you two have dis-invested from Chesapeake et.al. You must have heard that the fract scam/bubble has burst? Right?
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Re: The Future of Natural Gas - An Interview with Raymond Le

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 04 Jun 2012, 14:43:36

pstarr wrote:I hope you two have dis-invested from Chesapeake et.al.


You don't get it. ---

You sell stocks when they are HIGH and you start your due diligence process when prices are LOW.

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Get it now? 8)
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Re: The Future of Natural Gas - An Interview with Raymond Le

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 04 Jun 2012, 14:54:40

Plantagenet wrote:
pstarr wrote:I hope you two have dis-invested from Chesapeake et.al.


You don't get it. ---

You buy stocks when they are LOW and you sell when they go UP.

Get it now? 8)

I guess that makes you smarter than the other playa's who were pumping that crap at peak.

Gotta have "investors" right? But the initial $5 million/well cost has escalated to $8.5 mil? So this means Chesapeake will need $9/tcf to stay in business. Where is the market now? $2? What did GW used to say? "burn me once, shame on me, burn me twice, huh?"
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Re: The Future of Natural Gas - An Interview with Raymond Le

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 04 Jun 2012, 15:00:47

pstarr wrote:I guess that makes you smarter than the other playa's


Yup. I even know how to spell the word "player" correctly.

pstarr wrote:So you see another round of ready investors?


People are buying and selling millions of shares of CHK every day. There is no shortage of investors now.
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Re: The Future of Natural Gas - An Interview with Raymond Le

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 04 Jun 2012, 15:25:40

Plantagenet wrote:
pstarr wrote:I guess that makes you smarter than the other playa's


Yup. I even know how to spell the word "player" correctly.

But I meant this kind of playa;
Image

The smooth cat who knows when to time it just right.

The guy or gal who gets in . . . and then gets out.

Know what I mean? Huh?

Plantagenet wrote:
pstarr wrote:So you see another round of ready investors?


There is no shortage of investors now.
There will be.
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Natural gas fuel uses.

Unread postby ronwagn » Thu 08 Nov 2012, 12:19:15

I don't know if or where I fit in on this blog, but I am a proponent of natural gas as a cleaner and cheaper fuel than gasoline and diesel. My goal is to use this resource worldwide for the benefit of all economies, and for the environmental benefits. I would appreciate any suggestions on threads along the alternative fuels line etc.

This is my spiel: Natural gas is the future of energy. It is replacing dirty old coal plants, and dangerous expensive nuclear plants. It will fuel cars, vans, buses, locomotives, aircraft, ships, tractors, engines of all kinds. It costs far less. It will help keep us out of more useless wars, where we shed our blood and money. It lowers CO2 emissions. Over 2,600 natural gas story links on my blog. An annotated bibliography of live links, updated daily. The big picture of natural gas.
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Energy is all around us. Just learn to use it in harmony with the environment.
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Re: Natural gas fuel uses.

Unread postby kuidaskassikaeb » Wed 14 Nov 2012, 16:02:23

Dear Ronwagn;

I gotta say, transportation is not a good place for this stuff. Having just spent 2 days at a natural gas explosion,
not this one. This one is great if you like to watch things blow up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTQrVXEPQrM

This one was actually using liquified natural gas. A car would probably used pressurized gas.

Since 100 cubic feet of gas contains about the same amount of energy as a gallon of gas 20 gallons of gas would require 2000 cubic feet of gas. A 10 gallon tank is about 2.5 cubic feet. So the gas would have to be pressurized to say 800 atmospheres. Well thats too much so lets so 4000psi. That is a bomb :shock: , even before the gas burns, and causes another explosion. Frankly I just don't see how you can solve this problem.
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Re: Natural gas fuel uses.

Unread postby ronwagn » Wed 14 Nov 2012, 20:22:28

It is actually safer than gasoline, and has been used since the sixties. Gasoline or natural gas are explosive.
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Re: Natural gas fuel uses.

Unread postby kuidaskassikaeb » Fri 16 Nov 2012, 09:10:36

Your right.

They solved the problem by putting in a half inch thick tank that takes up half the trunk, and only gives 150 miles range, but they did solve it.

You learn something new every day.
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Re: Natural gas fuel uses.

Unread postby basil_hayden » Fri 16 Nov 2012, 13:24:43

I'll stick with my energy dense liquid petroleum, thank you very much.
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Re: The Future of Natural Gas - An Interview with Raymond Le

Unread postby Graeme » Tue 18 Dec 2012, 16:38:12

Sasol's Answer to the Natural Gas Highway: Convert the Fuel

Two weeks ago, Sasol, Ltd (a South African company) announced its intention to invest between $16 and $21 bn in an integrated gas-to-liquids (GTL) and ethane cracker complex in Westlake Louisiana. According to the company press release, the complex is expected to create 1,253 direct jobs with salaries averaging $88,000. This would constitute one of the largest foreign direct investments ever contemplated in the US, and represent one of the top ten economic drivers in Louisiana, and the state is reportedly paying $2bn in tax incentives for the privilege.

The project would yield an estimated 96,000 barrels of diesel per day, with 48,000 bb/day to be delivered in an initial phase and the remainder to follow in a second. The ethane cracker would produce 1.5 million tons annually of ethylene – a basic element used in the chemical industry.

Sasol has been in the synthetic fuels business for over half a century, deriving its initial experience in South Africa when the country was isolated during the apartheid years, and it produced liquid fuels from coal turned to syngas. In 2007, it constructed a large GTL plant to take advantage of Qatar‘s abundant gas resources, and it now has facilities planned or under construction in a number of countries such as Nigeria, Uzbekistan, and Canada.

Sasol’s move to the US is driven by the shale gas boom. As stated on their website: “Along with the de-linking of oil and gas prices, and the abundance of gas at relatively low prices in North America, Sasol is well positioned to convert the low-priced gas into high-value transport fuels.”

The technology to be utilized is the Fischer Tropsch process, the same technology to be used to convert landfill gas to airline fuel for British Airways starting in 2014. The aviation company recently announced it was committing to purchase $500 mn worth over ten years. And while tried and true, the 90-year old technology is also expensive at scale. An article in yesterday’s NY Times highlighted a cost overrun of 3X for Royal Dutch Shell’s $19 bn Pearl plant in Qatar, as well as a joint effort by Exxon Mobil and Conoco Phillips that never got off the ground.

According to the NY Times, the economics only work when there is a significant arbitrage opportunity between the price of natural gas and the price of oil, where those prices are around $4 per thousand cubic feet and $100 for oil, and production capital costs are kept in line. It works at those prices because at $4 per mmBtu, the energy contained in natural gas is priced at the equivalent of $24 per barrel of crude oil, according to the Financial Times.

Sasol’s bet is an interesting variant of the so-called natural gas highway, and it approaches the same holy grail from an entirely different angle: Clean Energy, Shell Oil and others are building out the natural gas highway infrastructure, dotting the landscape with LNG and CNG stations. Meanwhile the major truck engine manufacturers are developing and manufacturing engines to run directly on natural gas.

By contrast, Sasol plans to leave the highway infrastructure and engine conversion to those other parties. They intend to convert gas into diesel for existing engines and infrastructure (don’t raise the bridge, lower the river).

Both approaches involve investments in the billions and rely on a healthy spread between low-priced natural gas and more costly petroleum-derived diesel.


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Re: The Future of Natural Gas - An Interview with Raymond Le

Unread postby Subjectivist » Tue 31 Jan 2017, 15:20:45

Mmasters, this is what I was trying to describe with my earlier response here,
gasoline-to-ng-how-many-years-does-the-us-have-of-ng-t73195.html
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
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Re: The Future of Natural Gas - An Interview with Raymond Le

Unread postby coffeeguyzz » Tue 31 Jan 2017, 16:37:29

If you folks have not seen pictures of Qatar's Pearl plant, the Google images offer impressive shots.

The varying Adsorbed Natural Gas breakthroughs in the last couple years is spurring furious efforts amongst competing companies to commercialize CNG in the American and Chinese marketplace.
Interesting times.
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THE Natural Gas Thread Pt. 2

Unread postby coffeeguyzz » Wed 17 May 2017, 15:34:28

Pennsylvania DEP just released March production numbers the other day.
Big evolution in completions is obvious as 20/30 MMcfd flow rates for weeks (months?) are becoming routine.
5 well pad from Cabot, the King pad, has produced over 22 Bcf in less than 8 months online.
A new outfit, Travis Peak, just brought online it's very first well, a Utica up in Tioga county.
Online 21 days and over 258,000 MMcf already.
Shell has been developing Utica wells in Tioga for a few years now and only recently seems to produce consistent high producers.
A 3 well pad - the Gee - has been online under 5 months with the wells producing near 2 Bcf each.
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Re: THE Natural Gas Thread (merged)

Unread postby coffeeguyzz » Sat 20 May 2017, 13:18:56

Just reading up a bit on the - mostly new - phenomena of shipping liquefied ethane from US ports ( Morgan's Point and Marcus Hook).

Indian, European and Chinese companies have gone from zero to big-time bokoo capacity by building mini fleets of new, purposefully built ethane carriers to fuel their crackers.
All this seems to have happened in the blink of an eye, time wise, and bodes well for the high btu gas coming out of the shale areas.
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Re: THE Natural Gas Thread (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 20 May 2017, 13:30:53

Coffee - I actually noticed that some time ago an posted a short note here. That's when I discovered much (maybe most) "LNG" shipped from the east coast was ethane and not methane. And it wasn't being imported for heating but for the manufacturing industry. Maybe tonight I'll be able to research the global context. As I suspect many who see LNG automatically think of home heating/power generation by methane. I had been until I discovered who some of the Brit LNG importers were and what they were doing with it.
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Re: THE Natural Gas Thread (merged)

Unread postby coffeeguyzz » Sat 20 May 2017, 14:03:36

Rock
I googled 'ethane shipping india marcus hook' and a bunch of recent, highly informative articles popped up.
You mention Europe as a destination.
The 8 ship Dragon fleet, capacity 27,000 m3, is in service, but the 6 ship, 87,000 m3 LEC ships are now, apparently, also on the water and primarily supplying a brand new, huge cracker in India.
This is amazing capacity that has been put in place in a very short amount of time.
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