[DesuMaiden]

Remember you need to generate that electricity somehow! You can't create electricity out of thin air! It isn't like fiat money that you can create out of thin air.

Electricity is not an energy source. Electricity is generated from burning or using some other energy source. Since the majority of electricity in the USA is generated by coal and natural gas (over 60%), we are still stuck with fossil fuels. Only a tiny percentage of electricity in the USA is generated by renewable energy sources. It is such a tiny percentage that it is pathetic.

[vtsnowedin]

All we need now is an all electric 707 jet liner.

Actually we might want to try an electric interstate rail system, freight and high-speed passenger rail. Tie it together with electric local and regional light-rail, trolley, and freight/passenger lines.

The London to New York line might be a bit tough to do.
I just helped my daughter (one of the three) move down to Atlanta to her new job. We sent a truck on ahead with the bulk of her furniture then parked my pick up at the nearest airport ,Manchester New Hampshire, then drove her packed Camry down over two days. We used about $90 of gas at $2.25 average plus $100 for one nights lodging and $125 for meals on the road. I flew home three days later for $235 and paid $60 for the long term parking of my truck. Flight and drive home took less then five hours. Well worth the price and use of jet fuel especially when you consider that there were about 150 passengers on the flight.

[dashster]

All we need now is an all electric 707 jet liner.

Actually we might want to try an electric interstate rail system, freight and high-speed passenger rail. Tie it together with electric local and regional light-rail, trolley, and freight/passenger lines.

Amazingly, it seems like electric rail in the United States is almost all past tense, if you don't include subways and light rail. They have an electric rail proposal in California that I think should have been intra-metro, not inter-metro. There are a lot more people who want to ride a high-speed electric train from San Jose to San Francisco,from San Francisco to Sacramento or from LA to San Bernadino then there are that want to ride it from Sacramento to LA or Bakersfield to LA. I think they should have gone for commuter service first, not vacation or business trip service.
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[toolpush]

All we need now is an all electric 707 jet liner.

Actually we might want to try an electric interstate rail system, freight and high-speed passenger rail. Tie it together with electric local and regional light-rail, trolley, and freight/passenger lines.

Pstarr,

I realize that electrifying the US freight rail system is a very popular concept on these sites, but I don't think most people realize what is involved. The US currently has a very efficient rail system with broad use of double stacked containers. This practice is available due heavy loading gauge,and the relative lack of obstacles that allow up to 20 feet clearance for the passage of double stacked 9 ft 6in containers. Though there are a significant number of projects under way, especially along the east coast to expand the number of lines capable of taking double stacked containers.
To then run these trains under electric wire, you are looking at a further 5 to 8 ft of clearance. I believe this would end up being a very expensive experience, and doubt it will happen on any sort of scale.
This is a story on the Indian experience of double stacking on electric line.
http://www.rdso.indianrailways.gov.in/w ... ontainer(1).pdf

The class 1 railways currently seem more interested in converting to LNG, as a means of getting off the oil wagon.

[dashster]

This is a story on the Indian experience of double stacking on electric line.
http://www.rdso.indianrailways.gov.in/w ... ontainer(1).pdf

The class 1 railways currently seem more interested in converting to LNG, as a means of getting off the oil wagon.

the story pdf

[toolpush]

. Can single-stacked (diesel) even currently run in the crowded East Coast with all the old low bridges?

Pstarr,

I think your question reflects your knowledge in this area, but yes single stack 9' 6" high containers fit nicely behind a diesel locomotive, and even fit under main line overhead wires, and would allow electric locomotives to be used.

Pstar, if you can't see the issue of raising head height for all rail tunnels and bridges by 5 to 8 ft greater than what is required for "double stack 3" clearance in the US rail system,especially on the east coast where they are currently spending over $10bil just to get to the 20ft clearance, then I think you need to do a little study before making sweeping claims about electrifying the US rail system

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-sta ... _transport

Back in the Oil drum days, not sure if you were ever read it, Alan of the Big Easy, a real rail nut, in a good way, who is actually advising Washington DC metro on rail matters, didn't realize the clearances required, and was quite shocked once I pointed it out.

[dashster]

This is a story on the Indian experience of double stacking on electric line.
http://www.rdso.indianrailways.gov.in/w ... ontainer(1).pdf

The class 1 railways currently seem more interested in converting to LNG, as a means of getting off the oil wagon.

the story pdf

What is your point. Toolpush posted a link that disproves his own argument?

I reposted a clickable link because his link wasn't clickable. But I did come back just now to ask why he said it can't be done and then posted an article where they did a test and then decided to go ahead with electrification.

A test programme has confirmed the feasibility of operating electrically-hauled double-stack container trains

[dashster]

Pstar, if you can't see the issue of raising head height for all rail tunnels and bridges by 5 to 8 ft greater than what is required for "double stack 3" clearance in the US rail system,especially on the east coast where they are currently spending over $10bil just to get to the 20ft clearance, then I think you need to do a little study before making sweeping claims about electrifying the US rail system

How easy is it for a train to switch locomotives. What if they used diesel in the metro areas but the big flat unpopulated areas of the center of the country that make up the bulk of the tracks were electrified?

[Subjectivist]

Pstar, if you can't see the issue of raising head height for all rail tunnels and bridges by 5 to 8 ft greater than what is required for "double stack 3" clearance in the US rail system,especially on the east coast where they are currently spending over $10bil just to get to the 20ft clearance, then I think you need to do a little study before making sweeping claims about electrifying the US rail system

How easy is it for a train to switch locomotives. What if they used diesel in the metro areas but the big flat unpopulated areas of the center of the country that make up the bulk of the tracks were electrified?

It's easier than that, diesel locomotives use the ICE to spin an electric generator that feeds into electric traction motors on the axels. Modifying a standard diesel locomotive to accept external power from cantenary wires in open country but run on the diesel generator set in tunnels or other places that won't accommodate feeder lines is very doable. Old locomotives are routinely stripped down to the frame and rebuilt today, all that would be required is an industry standard and time for the new units to come out of the rebuilding shops.

[toolpush]

Sub,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-diesel_locomotive

Duel mode locomotives can be done, as you will see on the link. You will also notice they are usually for nitch markets and light duty.
Interesting that that you suggest using the diesel in tunnels,as this is usually where the duel mode is used in electric mode.
Not sure it would be so easy as rebuilding a new old loco, and installing a transformer and extra circuitry that would be required. Building from new would be more likely scenario. There is not much spare room in a loco these days and high voltage takes space.
If the diesel needs to be running for every overhead bridge or tunnel that the train passes under or through, then depending on the geography, the diesel could be spending all of its time on idle, with many short bursts of power and therefore cutting into any possible fuel savings.

[dashster]

If the diesel needs to be running for every overhead bridge or tunnel that the train passes under or through, then depending on the geography, the diesel could be spending all of its time on idle, with many short bursts of power and therefore cutting into any possible fuel savings.

On their webpage for the Bombardier MITRAC Hybrid they say that: " Diesel engines run only when necessary". Hopefully they are saying that the engine can shut on an off quickly and regularly like a Prius does.

[toolpush]

Dash,

Not sure what their regime would be for running and idling the diesels. I have yet to find a mechanic who likes to stop and start engines especially big ones, they much prefer to keep them idling. Quick starts and sudden loads are a strict no no with large diesels.I feel these duel units are designed to run the length of the electric line on electricity, then 15-20 min before wires run out, the diesels fire up and warm up, especially in a Canadian winter, then run over the non electric section. Not sure how practical this would be with short obstacles such as overhead bridges and short tunnels, would work.
They are looking at a 4000kw loco, electric but only 2500kw diesel, and they are specced for passenger trains, and not freight. I am not knowledgeable to know why, but I suspect there are technical reasons why heavy freight trains are catered for with this arrangement, but 2500kw, is relatively low powered for main line freight locos.

I feel rail is just so much more fuel efficient than it competitor, truck transport, that they do not really have to worry too much about electric. As the price of diesel rises, then rail gains in its advantage. It will only be if trucking can nullify the effects of expensive diesel, eg Nat gas on trucks etc, that rail will need to look too hard at alternatives. Electrifying the complete, or even just the main lines, will most likely add up to hundreds of billions of dollars. I realize that is a mere fraction of the govt deficit, but it is still a huge amount of money.

[vtsnowedin]

A passenger set might weigh 500 tons . A hundred car freight train 10,000 tons and have three locomotives to make the grades. That's a lot of kwhs to strip from a grid in passing.

[KaiserJeep]

The good news is that electric powertrains are available for a range of vehicles now which vary from delivery vans to the largest mining dumptrucks in the world:

http://spectrum.ieee.org/view-from-the-valley/transportation/advanced-cars/ian-wright-is-turning-garbage-trucks-and-fedex-vans-into-high-performance-evs


http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/environment/worlds-biggest-dump-truck-goes-electric


This is important because of the decentralized nature of America - few of us live in European-style villages where everything one needs for living is within a 5 minute walk.

Building heavy duty rail transport is extremely costly. But as long as you are using containerized freight, it is perfectly possible to move those containers onto heavy trucks with EV powertrains and transport them the last few miles from the railroad to the supermarket or shopping mall or home improvement store.

In fact the current raging debate here in Silicon Valley is whether the standard electric heavy truck configuration has the oversized battery in the traction cab (i.e. the "tractor") or in the cargo section (i.e. the "trailer"). Each approach has advantages. Since labor is never getting cheaper, allowing the truck and driver to switch to a charged battery and load in one step is probably going to win out.

That is, if you are not a believer in driverless vehicles. If you are such, then the economics favor an integrated, streamlined tractor-trailer with integral battery, that one simply plugs a container into:


Electric railways, electric heavy trucks, and electric personal transportation to and from the supermarket, shopping mall, or home improvement store. It's all about preserving the USA's high consumption, high tech, and entirely distributed lifestyle past the age of cheap oil.

[dashster]

A blog post from May 2012, on why freight will never electrify in the United States.

[toolpush]

Thanks Dash,

I am no expert, but basically it came down to money, and they never got into the double stacking bit, and head clearance.

[vtsnowedin]

The good news is that electric powertrains are available for a range of vehicles now which vary from delivery vans to the largest mining dumptrucks in the world:

http://spectrum.ieee.org/view-from-the-valley/transportation/advanced-cars/ian-wright-is-turning-garbage-trucks-and-fedex-vans-into-high-performance-evs


http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/environment/worlds-biggest-dump-truck-goes-electric

That truck is no more electric then a diesel locomotive.

The AC electric drive is powered by two 16-cylindar-diesel engines that each have an output of about 1,700 kW. The truck is more than 20 meters long and nearly 10 meters wide.