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Did The Saudis And The US Collude In Dropping Oil Prices?

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Did The Saudis And The US Collude In Dropping Oil Prices?

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 25 Dec 2014, 01:01:44

I said this a month ago, now here's an article on it. I don't care for the word "collude" though -- lowering oil prices is a valid cold war tactic. I'd say the US and Saudis "cooperated" rather than "colluded."

Anyhow I don't know this is the fact or not, but here's the article:

Did The Saudis And The US Collude In Dropping Oil Prices?

Oilprice.com looked beyond the headlines for the reason behind the oil price drop, and found that the explanation, while difficult to prove, may revolve around control of oil and gas in the Middle East and the weakening of Russia, Iran and Syria by flooding the market with cheap oil.

The oil weapon

We don't have to look too far back in history to see Saudi Arabia, the world's largest oil exporter and producer, using the oil price to achieve its foreign policy objectives. In 1973, Egyptian President Anwar Sadat convinced Saudi King Faisal to cut production and raise prices, then to go as far as embargoing oil exports, all with the goal of punishing the United States for supporting Israel against the Arab states. It worked. The “oil price shock” quadrupled prices.

It happened again in 1986, when Saudi Arabia-led OPEC allowed prices to drop precipitously, and then in 1990, when the Saudis sent prices plummeting as a way of taking out Russia, which was seen as a threat to their oil supremacy. In 1998, they succeeded. When the oil price was halved from $25 to $12, Russia defaulted on its debt.

The Saudis and other OPEC members have, of course, used the oil price for the obverse effect, that is, suppressing production to keep prices artificially high and member states swimming in “petrodollars”. In 2008, oil peaked at $147 a barrel.

Related: OPEC Ministers Decry Price War Conspiracy Theories

Turning to the current price drop, the Saudis and OPEC have a vested interest in taking out higher-cost competitors, such as US shale oil producers, who will certainly be hurt by the lower price. Even before the price drop, the Saudis were selling their oil to China at a discount. OPEC's refusal on Nov. 27 to cut production seemed like the baldest evidence yet that the oil price drop was really an oil price war between Saudi Arabia and the US.

However, analysis shows the reasoning is complex, and may go beyond simply taking down the price to gain back lost marketshare.

“What is the reason for the United States and some U.S. allies wanting to drive down the price of oil?” Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro asked rhetorically in October. “To harm Russia.”

Many believe the oil price plunge is the result of deliberate and well-planned collusion on the part of the United States and Saudi Arabia to punish Russia and Iran for supporting the murderous Assad regime in Syria.

Punishing Assad and friends

Proponents of this theory point to a Sept. 11 meeting between US Secretary of State John Kerry and Saudi King Abdullah at his palace on the Red Sea. According to an article in the Wall Street Journal, it was during that meeting that a deal was hammered out between Kerry and Abdullah. In it, the Saudis would support Syrian airstrikes against Islamic State (ISIS), in exchange for Washington backing the Saudis in toppling Assad.

If in fact a deal was struck, it would make sense, considering the long-simmering rivalry between Saudi Arabia and its chief rival in the region: Iran. By opposing Syria, Abdullah grabs the opportunity to strike a blow against Iran, which he sees as a powerful regional rival due to its nuclear ambitions, its support for militant groups Hamas and Hezbollah, and its alliance with Syria, which it provides with weapons and funding. The two nations are also divided by religion, with the majority of Saudis following the Sunni version of Islam, and most Iranians considering themselves Shi’ites.

“The conflict is now a full-blown proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia, which is playing out across the region,” Reuters reported on Dec. 15. “Both sides increasingly see their rivalry as a winner-take-all conflict: if the Shi’ite Hezbollah gains an upper hand in Lebanon, then the Sunnis of Lebanon—and by extension, their Saudi patrons—lose a round to Iran. If a Shi’ite-led government solidifies its control of Iraq, then Iran will have won another round.”

The Saudis know the Iranians are vulnerable on the oil price. Experts say the country needs $140 a barrel oil to balance its budget; at sub-$60 prices, the Saudis succeed in pressuring Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamanei, possibly containing its nuclear ambitions and making the country more pliable to the West, which has the power to reduce or lift sanctions if Iran cooperates.

Adding credence to this theory, Iranian President Hassan Rouhani told a Cabinet meeting earlier this month that the fall in oil prices was “politically motivated” and a “conspiracy against the interests of the region, the Muslim people and the Muslim world.”

Pipeline conspiracy

Some commentators have offered a more conspiratorial theory for the Saudis wanting to get rid of Assad. They point to a 2011 agreement between Syria, Iran and Iraq that would see a pipeline running from the Iranian Port Assalouyeh to Damascus via Iraq. The $10-billion project would take three years to complete and would be fed gas from the South Pars gas field, which Iran shares with Qatar. Iranian officials have said they plan to extend the pipeline to the Mediterranean to supply gas to Europe – in competition with Qatar, the world's largest LNG exporter.

“The Iran-Iraq-Syria pipeline – if it’s ever built – would solidify a predominantly Shi’ite axis through an economic, steel umbilical cord,” wrote Asia Times correspondent Pepe Escobar.

Global Research, a Canada-based think tank, goes further to suggest that Assad's refusal in 2009 to allow Qatar to construct a gas pipeline from its North Field through Syria and on to Turkey and the EU, combined with the 2011 pipeline deal, “ignited the full-scale Saudi and Qatari assault on Assad’s power.”

“Today the US-backed wars in Ukraine and in Syria are but two fronts in the same strategic war to cripple Russia and China and to rupture any Eurasian counter-pole to a US-controlled New World Order. In each, control of energy pipelines, this time primarily of natural gas pipelines—from Russia to the EU via Ukraine and from Iran and Syria to the EU via Syria—is the strategic goal,” Global Research wrote in an Oct. 26 post.

Poking the Russian bear

How does Russia play into the oil price drop? As a key ally of Syria, supplying Assad with billions in weaponry, President Vladimir Putin has, along with Iran, found himself targeted by the House of Saud. Putin's territorial ambitions in the Ukraine have also put him at odds with US President Barack Obama and leaders of the EU, which in May of this year imposed a set of sanctions on Russia.

As has been noted, Saudi Arabia's manipulation of the oil price has twice targeted Russia. This time, the effects of a low price have hit Moscow especially hard due to sanctions already in place combined with the low ruble. Last week, in an effort to defend its currency, the Bank of Russia raised interest rates to 17 percent. The measure failed, with the ruble dropping another 20 percent, leading to speculation the country could impose capital controls. Meanwhile, Putin took the opportunity in his annual televised address to announce that while the economy is likely to suffer for the next two years and that Russians should brace for a recession, “Our economy will get diversified and oil prices will go back up.”

He may be right, but what will the effect be on Russia of a sustained period of low oil prices? Eric Reguly, writing in The Globe and Mail last Saturday, points out that with foreign exchange reserves at around $400 billion, the Russian state is “in no danger of collapse” even in the event of a deep recession. Reguly predicts the greater threat is to the Russian private sector, which has a debt overhang of some $700 billion.

“This month alone, $30-billion of that amount must be repaid, with another $100-billion coming due next year. The problem is made worse by the economic sanctions, which have made it all but impossible for Russian companies to finance themselves in Western markets,” he writes.

Will it work?

Whether one is a conspiracy theorist or a market theorist, in explaining the oil price drop, it really matters little, for the effect is surely more important than the cause. Putin has already shown himself to be a master player in the chess game of energy politics, so the suggestion that sub-$60 oil will crush the Russian leader has to be met with a healthy degree of skepticism.

Related: OPEC Calls For Widespread Production Cuts

Moscow's decision on Dec. 1 to drop the $45-billion South Stream natural gas pipeline project in favor of a new pipeline deal with Turkey shows Putin's willingness to circumvent European partners to continue deliveries of natural gas to European countries that depend heavily on Russia for its energy requirements. The deal also puts Turkey squarely in the Russian energy camp at a time when Russia has been alienated by the West.

Of course, the Russian dalliance with China is a key part of Putin's great Eastern pivot that will keep stoking demand for Russian gas even as the Saudis and OPEC, perhaps with US collusion, keep pumping to hold down the price. The November agreement, that would see Gazprom supply Chinese state oil company CNPC with 30 billion cubic meters of gas per year, builds on an earlier deal to sell China 38 bcm annually in an agreement valued at $400 billion.

As Oilprice.com commented on Sunday, “ongoing projects are soldiering on and Russian oil output is projected to remain unchanged into 2015.”

“Russia will go down with the ship before ceding market share – especially in Asia, where Putin reaffirmed the pivot is real. Saudi Arabia and North America will have to keep pumping as Putin plans to uphold his end in this game of brinksmanship.”
http://oilprice.com/Energy/Oil-Prices/Did-The-Saudis-And-The-US-Collude-In-Dropping-Oil-Prices.html
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Re: Did The Saudis And The US Collude In Dropping Oil Prices

Unread postby BobInget » Thu 25 Dec 2014, 08:52:12

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Re: Did The Saudis And The US Collude In Dropping Oil Prices

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Mon 29 Dec 2014, 15:44:43

DECEMBER 29, 2014
Did the U.S. and the Saudis Conspire to Push Down Oil Prices?
Irreversible Decline?

by MIKE WHITNEY
“Saudi oil policy… has been subject to a great deal of wild and inaccurate conjecture in recent weeks. We do not seek to politicize oil… For us it’s a question of supply and demand, it’s purely business.”

– Ali al Naimi, Saudi Oil Minister

“There is no conspiracy, there is no targeting of anyone. This is a market and it goes up and down.”

– Suhail Bin Mohammed al-Mazroui, United Arab Emirates’ petroleum minister

“We all see the lowering of oil prices. There’s lots of talk about what’s causing it. Could it be an agreement between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia to punish Iran and affect the economies of Russia and Venezuela? It could.”

– Russian President Vladimir Putin

Are falling oil prices part of a US-Saudi plan to inflict economic damage on Russia, Iran and Venezuela?
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Re: Did The Saudis And The US Collude In Dropping Oil Prices

Unread postby americandream » Tue 30 Dec 2014, 06:52:06

The Saudi leadership whose patrons were the colonial British are really not the smartest choice for managers of our global energy store.
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Re: Did The Saudis And The US Collude In Dropping Oil Prices

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Wed 31 Dec 2014, 14:09:32

pstarr - Here’s the basic problem I have: it’s imagining the conversation between the Saudi folks who issue the sales contracts for KSA oil and the refiners who buy that oil. I’ve read that somewhere the KSA post the current price for their different oils. I can’t find that posting. Maybe you have to be a player with a password to get to that site. I don’t know but it’s not important as long as we know it’s the KSA posting the price with the buyers deciding how much, if any, of that oil they’ll buy at that price.

So here’s one possible conversation:

Refinery buyer: “I see you posted price for the XYZ oil is $90/bbl. I would like a contract to buy 50 million bbls next month.”

Saudi rep: “No problem. We have more than that volume already committed. Except we’ve decide to change the price from $90/bbl to $60/bbl. Do you still want that 50 million bbls next month?”

Refinery buyer: ”Hell yes I want that oil. In fact I’m going to call my boss and see if he wants to buy more. He had already authorized me to pay you $4.5 billion for that volume. But at the price you’re selling I have an extra $1.5 billion more to spend. I could buy an extra 25 million bbls of oil.”

Saudi rep: “Sorry but all the rest of our oil is already committed to other refiner”.

Oil buyer: ‘I’ll tell you what: I pay you $65/bbl for the oil you’re planning to sell another refiner for $60/bbl”.

Saudi rep: “I’m sorry my friend but my King has made it clear: we are not to sell any oil for more than $60/bbl regardless of being offered a higher price by anyone.”


Alternative conversation:

Oil buyer: “We think we’ll have a market that can buy the products we make next month from the 50 million bbls of oil we want to buy from you. But at that $90/bbl posting of yours and our projection of what the consumers will pay us for those products we estimate we would lose $15/bbl. So no…we can’t buy any of your oil at that price.”

Saudi rep: “That’s OK. We can work something out. It only costs us $10/bbl to produce that oil. At what price for our oil can you make an acceptable profit margin?”

Oil buyer: “Well, at $60/bbl we can make a crack spread of $15/bbl.” It really doesn’t matter to us whether we pay $90 or $60 per bbl as long as we make that $15 per bbl crack spread”.

Saudi rep: “OK, you got a deal. We’ll still make a $50/bbl margin for every bbl we sell you. That is still more income then we’ve ever had in any year prior to 2007. And we don’t have to worry about covering our budget deficit: we have $700 billion in reserve we can draw on. So we can still do everything we’ve planned on for many years. And do so without borrowing a penny unlike the US which had to borrow $483 billion to cover its 2014 budget deficit. In fact, a portion of our income from that $700 billion will use to cover our shortfall will be from the interest we’re drawing on those US T-bills and other more aggressive investments. All we have to do is average a 5% return on our reserve and we can cover our deficit without dipping into the principle.”

So I let you and everyone else decide which you feel is the more plausible conversation.
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Re: Did The Saudis And The US Collude In Dropping Oil Prices

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 31 Dec 2014, 16:06:23

One has to ask how is saudi oil production actually measured? Is there a digital flow-meter attached to well or production line? No.


Not sure where you get your information but each and everyone of Aramco’s producing wells are connected in with SCADA. Their pipelines and plants are similarily monitored. The production information is best oil field practices, you will not find more reliable information anywhere. The MRC wells are all monitored with SMART completions which is a top of the line solution.

How is saudi oil production controlled? Chocked back by turning off the pipelines? Can't be done willy-nilly or the paraffin clogs.


Again not sure where you get your information but it is incorrect. Production is controlled in various manners but invariably at the wellhead (either producing or shut-in). Oil is never left to sit in pipelines but even if it did any paraffinic oil has already been treated with pour point depressant chemicals. Sales volumes are controlled through onshore storage and timing of tanker offloading.
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Re: Did The Saudis And The US Collude In Dropping Oil Prices

Unread postby sparky » Wed 31 Dec 2014, 19:20:06

.
The Saudi total production , transport and loading is controlled from Rhyad ,
there is one control center with dazzling displays of the totality of every flow pressure, temperature , control valves positions and percentage opening .
it's located in a huge compound in the suburbs with a double layer of heavily armed security

It's the very nerve center of the world oil business
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZkO5ZquVn0

I've personally worked with Saudi Heavy stuff, the whole eastern province was smelling of crude ,
partly due to the spraying of it on the side of the road to stabilize dunes .
it also was sprayed to make very fine fairways on the golf courses :)
in summer the temperature was steady 48Dg C , the coldest I've seen was 19Dg C
pipe freeze is hardly an issue , also there was a fair bit of water in it
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Re: Did The Saudis And The US Collude In Dropping Oil Prices

Unread postby sparky » Wed 31 Dec 2014, 23:42:41

.
On the intention behind the six month long release of the strategic oil reserve
this guy thought back in May that the intent was political

http://energypolicyinfo.com/2014/03/rel ... what-goal/
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Re: Did The Saudis And The US Collude In Dropping Oil Prices

Unread postby dashster » Sat 03 Jan 2015, 10:35:49

Judging from this graph, there was certainly no collusion between the US and the Saudis for the Saudis to produce more oil:

Image
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Re: Did The Saudis And The US Collude In Dropping Oil Prices

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 03 Jan 2015, 11:27:15

Sparky - As you may know it wasn't a "six month release"...it was a 5 million bbl release. So, first, while I can't find the time period for the release, the SPR system is designed to deliver 1 mmbopd so it may well have been a 5 day release and not a 6 month release. At 5 million bbls over 5 days that increases global supply of about 1%...for just 5 days. And a 6 month release of 5 million bbls of oil: an increase in the global oil supply of 0.03% for 6 months.

And lastly: the CONGRESSIONAL LAW, which cannot be overridden by executive order, requires any released oil be replaced in a fairly short time frame. Thus requiring 5 million bbls of oil to be removed from the market place.

But what the hell...shouldn't let facts get in the way of a great conspiracy theory. LOL.
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Re: Did The Saudis And The US Collude In Dropping Oil Prices

Unread postby sparky » Sat 03 Jan 2015, 16:45:24

.
The time span was 6 months , the quantity set as about 1% , the reason given were to make a test run of the pumping and marketing infrastructure , especially of the seaway pipeline which had been reversed
This is a good reason , anyone familiar with industry stuff know that never mind the specs ,
it work only if it is shown to work for real
as for the strategic reserves numbers , check and make your own mind


this link is the Department of energy report to the senate , pretty solid stuff
http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014 ... Report.pdf

and the trend
https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_endin ... um_reserve
the Dept.of energy has been drawing down the reserve for the last 6 months
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Re: Did The Saudis And The US Collude In Dropping Oil Prices

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 03 Jan 2015, 17:53:33

Sparky - Thanks. Cool site I wasn't aware of. But it does show the 5 million bbl drawn down was done over a 1 month period: 4 April to 9 May. During that period the world produced about 3 billion bbls of oil according to the IEA. Thus that 5 million bbls added 0.17% to the global supply during the release. It's interesting that the link the SPR released about 30 million bbls back in the summer of 2011 over about 1 month. That's the max allowable rate by law: 1 mmbopd for 30 days. Here's the story behind that release according to CNN:

"Four reasons are emerging for President Obama's surprise decision Thursday to release 30 million barrels of oil from the nation's strategic reserve -- economic stimulus; a looming supply shortage; a wake up call to OPEC; and a warning shot to speculators in the oil market. The move was done in conjunction with other developed nations and will ultimately put 60 million barrels of fuel on the market over the next 30 days. Whether it will achieve any of the desired effects is anyone's guess." Hmm, lets see: did adding 0.34% to the global oil supply for 30 days achieve anything? Definitely IMHO: it proved releasing oil from the US SPR as well as the stored reserves of other nations doesn't mean sh*t to OPEC. LOL.

According to the EIA the price of WTI was $96.26 in June when the release began, dropped to $85.22 in Sept and then back to $98.56 in Dec. So the release to send OPEC a wake up call showed them that oil can end up at a higher price then it was at the time of the release. Hmm...I think someone hit the snooze button and missed their wake up call. LOL. And the effect of the rest of the word releasing another 30 million bbls of oil: Brent did decrease during the last half of 2011: from $113.83 to $107.83. But just 3 months later it was back up to $125.45.

So again with respect to the idea that the US gov't has been using SPR releases in a conspiracy with the KSA to hurt Russia and Iran I'll repeat myself: But what the hell...shouldn't let facts get in the way of a great conspiracy theory. LOL.
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Re: Did The Saudis And The US Collude In Dropping Oil Prices

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 03 Jan 2015, 18:03:32

And once more a reminder of the shared pain if oil prices remain $30/bbl lower for the next 12 months then it was in spring 2014: the KSA, the puppeteer behind this devious plan, loses $100 BILLION IN REVENUE. Clever bastards: who would ever suspect they would intentionally piss away so much revenue while continuing to deplete their finite oil resources their population is so absolutely dependent upon. Just so devious! LOL.
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Re: Did The Saudis And The US Collude In Dropping Oil Prices

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 03 Jan 2015, 22:38:45

Pstarr - I have no doubt the KSA knows how exactly how much they produce every hour of every day. No doubt they have the most sophisticated SCADA on the planet. OTOH the last I heard KSA production and sales volumes were a state secret and any disclosure by any Saudi could be subject to severe penalties. Which doesn't mean the KSA misrepresent their production. But it also means no verification either.
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Re: Did The Saudis And The US Collude In Dropping Oil Prices

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Sat 03 Jan 2015, 23:06:58

But that was not the point of my post. I meant to ask how Saudi oil production is actually measured by US, THE CONSUMER? We have no way of looking into that SCADA system. We have only to a) trust the Saudi's word; and they have not indicated cutbacks, or b) trust that guy (as I remember he actually exists) who counts tanker traffic from inside an apartment building in Djibouti. No word from him on cutsbacks either.

And how is this different than any other producer in the world? Can you access Cheseapeakes wellhead RTU/PLC's ....no you cannot. You take their word at what they produce just like every other producer in the world. But for some reason you do not trust the Saudis....I do not know if that is because you have this classic view that many people in the US do of a bunch of "sand niggers" sitting out there pumping oil (I apologize for using that terminology but it is very common out there amongst the US expat community) or you believe they have a reason to lie. Their technology and approach to the business is quite advanced from what you would see amongst most US companies. Extremely professional, much more so than my experience with US companies.

I thought I said the same thing: if the Saudi's cut back oil-pipeline activity we might know it, especially at the receiving end. Again, no sense of cutbacks via pipeline.


No you did not. Production is curbed at the wellhead, not in the pipeline. It is that simple. If you have access to their SCADA then you can probably comment on where their production is coming from, otherwise not likely.

The easy answer to all of this is there a time when someone asked Saudi Arabia for oil at a reasonable price that they could not deliver. Absolutely not is the answer.
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