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Re: I can't believe China is so obsessed with the automobile

Unread postPosted: Sat 30 May 2015, 07:46:44
by onlooker
By the way for all interested, using the link I provided then seeing the population of a given country will indicate how many vehicles on road in a country.

Re: I can't believe China is so obsessed with the automobile

Unread postPosted: Sat 30 May 2015, 09:14:28
by dolanbaker
onlooker wrote:umm, I do not really agree. First, money has been spent to build national road system and to produce and import all those cars China now has. All these resources could have been used instead to fund the national railway system. Second, I did a little research and in turns out that by looking at cars per capita China in only second to US in terms of cars on road. So they are already there in terms of a significant car culture with the concomitant need for oil. I provide this link to check on cars per capita of different countries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... per_capita

According to the link provided, you are missing the point that the population of China is roughly five times that of the US.
Code: Select all
Rank    Country    Motor vehicles per1000 people    Notes
4           United States          809                        2011[1][2]
106           China                  113                        2014[25]

Building the roads first enabled the economy to grow much faster than it otherwise would have, building the railways would have worked 150 years ago when there was no motorized road transport available.

Re: I can't believe China is so obsessed with the automobile

Unread postPosted: Sat 30 May 2015, 09:26:48
by onlooker
Yes the population of China is much larger but that in fact is the point when you see per capita it infers per individual so since China has much more people their actual total number of cars is huge second only to US. Second, in terms of transport China could have transported many goods via train so why would that not have enabled them to grow economically. Now, the last point China created from scratch the highway system it was not their before so why could they have not forgone any highway building or car ownership in favor of railway. This could have happened as soon as their economy really began to grow sometime in the 70's or 80's.

Re: I can't believe China is so obsessed with the automobile

Unread postPosted: Sat 30 May 2015, 09:55:54
by dolanbaker
It appears that Chinese railway infrastructure has been growing rapidly since 1949, so the road construction was in fact in addition to the already expanding rail network.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_China

Code: Select all
Rail track length
Year    km    ±% p.a.
1949    21,800    —   
1955    25,600    +2.71%
1960    33,900    +5.78%
1965    36,400    +1.43%
1970    41,000    +2.41%
1975    46,000    +2.33%
1980    53,300    +2.99%
1985    55,000    +0.63%
1990    57,800    +1.00%
1995    62,400    +1.54%
2000    68,700    +1.94%
2005    75,400    +1.88%
2006    77,100    +2.25%
2007    77,966    +1.12%
2008    79,687    +2.21%
2009    85,818    +7.69%
2010    90,504    +5.46%
2011    93,200    +2.98%
2012    97,600    +4.72%
2013    103,144    +5.68%

Re: I can't believe China is so obsessed with the automobile

Unread postPosted: Sat 30 May 2015, 10:13:08
by onlooker
umm, interesting and now they seem to be really committed to much more railway. I have heard that the traffic jams are so huge now and that some Chinese are even reconsidering buying cars. So this may be the impetus for this new binge of railway building. Still, I wonder if the Chinese are not apprised of peak oil so why invest so heavily in cars particularly of the combustion engine type? Just wondering.

Re: I can't believe China is so obsessed with the automobile

Unread postPosted: Sat 30 May 2015, 10:29:15
by Subjectivist
onlooker wrote:umm, interesting and now they seem to be really committed to much more railway. I have heard that the traffic jams are so huge now and that some Chinese are even reconsidering buying cars. So this may be the impetus for this new binge of railway building. Still, I wonder if the Chinese are not apprised of peak oil so why invest so heavily in cars particularly of the combustion engine type? Just wondering.


China is heavily invested in building a Methanol fuel economy as well. Every car built in China has to be M-100/E-100 compliant and they are building the system to manufacture Methanol from coal or natural gas.

Re: I can't believe China is so obsessed with the automobile

Unread postPosted: Sat 30 May 2015, 10:37:30
by GASMON
The Chinese could not give Jack Shit for Peak Oil, Climate Change, Global Warming, Their own clean (drinking) water crisis, the oncoming food crisis etc etc etc.

Produce and grow, Produce and grow, Produce and grow, Produce and grow etc to infinity (or more like extinction !!)

Their like a giant ants nest, 6000 miles across. Absolutely no stopping them.

They are to start a High speed line down to Thailand very soon - plastic shit southbound, rice northbound. Also one being planned across Brazil to Peru (or Chile) - whats that for ? Coffee, Brazil Nuts, Iron Ore, Coal, Oil.

The buggers are everywhere, the planets resource vacuum cleaner on max and growing.

Something drastic will happen IMHO - and soon.

Gas

Re: I can't believe China is so obsessed with the automobile

Unread postPosted: Sat 30 May 2015, 10:42:55
by onlooker
Great eye opening post G. Yeah it resembles some kind of locust swarm, no stopping it until all the crops are gone. Is that not the revelation we all are receiving. Keep going until we cannot. Then what?

Re: I can't believe China is so obsessed with the automobile

Unread postPosted: Sat 23 Jan 2016, 10:55:44
by Tanada
Tanada wrote:A couple of news reports have recently come out crowing about how China's economy just isn't growing much right now. Well I went and looked up China's car sales for the last several years and this is what I found, yes growth is a little slower than it was in the white hot days of the last decade. However the growth rate is still orange hot compared to the Western old line industrial powers.

Passenger car sales in China,

2008 6,76 Million, 1,69 Million per quarter average
2009 10,33 Million, 2,58 Million per quarter average
2010 13.76 Million, 3,44 Million per quarter average
2011 14.47 Million, 3,62 Million per quarter average
2012 15.50 Million, 3,88 Million per quarter average
2013 17.93 Million, 4,48 Million per quarter average
2014 19.71 Million, 4,93 Million per quarter average
2015 5.31 Million, 5,31 Million per quarter average

2015 numbers are for just the first quarter of the year but I challenge anyone to say with a straight face China is no longer interested in expanding their passenger vehicle fleet and competing for world oil supply. The facts are at their average monthly sale rate in the first quarter of 2015 they will have already purchased more passenger cars by April 30 2015 than they bought in the entire calendar year of 2008.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/2337 ... -in-china/


Here is an update covering all of 2015, while percentage wise the growth rate is slower the absolute number of new car sales is up nearly 5 million over 2014 sales.

BEIJING - Auto sales in China, the world's biggest auto market, rose 4.7 percent year on year to 24.59 million units in 2015, data from an industry association showed Tuesday.

The growth marks the slowest pace in three years, following the 6.9-percent rise in 2014 and 13.9-percent gain in 2013, according to the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers.

Last year, the country's vehicle output stood at 24.5 million units, the data showed.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/m ... 050515.htm

Last bit of info, the car sales last year took a big hit in the third quarter, but surged in the fourth quarter to reach all new heights. Click on link below to see the graph, I couldn't get the image function to work correctly.

Image
http://cdn.tradingeconomics.com/embed/? ... =450&w=850

Re: I can't believe China is so obsessed with the automobile

Unread postPosted: Sat 23 Jan 2016, 11:19:18
by onlooker
One wonders how much longer given that all this Chinese expansion as we have discovered has also relied on accessible cheap credit. When the credit faucet slows or stops what then. They seem to have tried to and I paraphrase duplicate"the greatest mis-allocation of resources in the history of humanity" referring to the suburban sprawl of the US. It makes absolutely no sense given where the planet is, given their huge population, given peak oil. But that is the insanity that is gripping the world or in this case China.

Re: I can't believe China is so obsessed with the automobile

Unread postPosted: Sat 23 Jan 2016, 11:24:27
by pstarr
Like I said in another post. The Chinese capitalists must have concluded it would be less expensive to lure the rural folks to sweatshop jobs in the postcard-pretty New Cities rather than bring modern life to them.

Re: I can't believe China is so obsessed with the automobile

Unread postPosted: Sat 23 Jan 2016, 11:27:35
by onlooker
Either way it is so friggin untenable!

Re: I can't believe China is so obsessed with the automobile

Unread postPosted: Sat 23 Jan 2016, 11:32:43
by Tanada
I still contend that the so called ghost cities might be the smartest thing ever done by China. It all depends on what the next decade of climate change brings. They could move most of their coastal population to those upland ghost cities within a few months of deciding to do so. With a totalitarian government they could seize all property within three meters of current sea level and condemn the structures, then scrap them out and relocate the population. I don't want to live in a totalitarian country, but that form of government does have advantages when it comes time to act.

Re: I can't believe China is so obsessed with the automobile

Unread postPosted: Sat 23 Jan 2016, 11:37:59
by onlooker
I still have to wonder why China did not go all into mass transit and instead seem to have it as a supplement to an already vast car culture? Whomever can give me a reasonable explanation I will salute haha.

Re: I can't believe China is so obsessed with the automobile

Unread postPosted: Sat 23 Jan 2016, 12:11:35
by pstarr
I all ready did onlooker. The capitalists don't want the labors to leave the sweatshops. The sweatshops are located where they need to be, by river/ocean transport hubs for sales to the USA. The capitalists don't want the consumer take their new money back to their home village.
Image

Quite an effective deterrent, wouldn't you say?

Re: I can't believe China is so obsessed with the automobile

Unread postPosted: Sat 23 Jan 2016, 12:17:29
by onlooker
Ha I see the huge traffic jams preclude too much time spent in rural villages. Still don't wire transfers exist?

Re: I can't believe China is so obsessed with the automobile

Unread postPosted: Sat 23 Jan 2016, 12:21:37
by pstarr
onlooker wrote:Ha I see the huge traffic jams preclude too much time spent in rural villages. Still don't wire transfers exist?

Not unless you can beam yourself back home like Scotty.

Re: I can't believe China is so obsessed with the automobile

Unread postPosted: Sat 23 Jan 2016, 13:01:16
by ennui2
onlooker wrote:I still have to wonder why China did not go all into mass transit and instead seem to have it as a supplement to an already vast car culture? Whomever can give me a reasonable explanation I will salute haha.


China has plenty of mass transit. The country is too overpopulated and despite communism there's a desire among the people to attain symbols of wealth and success, like personal automobiles.

Re: I can't believe China is so obsessed with the automobile

Unread postPosted: Sat 23 Jan 2016, 13:05:22
by pstarr
Ennui, good luck finding your own symbol of wealth and status. I always assumed folks needed to be trained to want that stuff.

Re: I can't believe China is so obsessed with the automobile

Unread postPosted: Sat 23 Jan 2016, 13:13:13
by Ibon
ennui2 wrote:
onlooker wrote:I still have to wonder why China did not go all into mass transit and instead seem to have it as a supplement to an already vast car culture? Whomever can give me a reasonable explanation I will salute haha.


China has plenty of mass transit. The country is too overpopulated and despite communism there's a desire among the people to attain symbols of wealth and success, like personal automobiles.



This is best reason Onlooker. But, this does beg another question. Why did the Chinese not socially engineer alternative symbols of wealth and success and status that were not so energy intensive? I suspect the reason is that as capitalists they are just copy cats. Perhaps scaled down just a bit but copy cats none the less.