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King Coal is dying article on PO.com

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

End of King Coal--NG Now Top Fuel for US Electricity

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 07 Jul 2012, 00:40:01

http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/07/06/512192/king-coals-throne-under-threat-us-natural-gas-generation-rivals-coal-in-april/

U.S. Natural Gas Generation Rivaled Coal In April

Recently published electric power data show that, for the first time since EIA began collecting the data, generation from natural gas-fired plants is virtually equal to generation from coal-fired plants, with each fuel providing 32% of total generation. In April 2012, preliminary data show net electric generation from natural gas was 95.9 million megawatthours, only slightly below generation from coal, at 96.0 million megawatthours.


If they were this close in April, I think it's safe to say that NG has taken the top spot by now.
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Re: End of King Coal--NG Now Top Fuel for US Electricity

Unread postby dsula » Sun 08 Jul 2012, 16:14:20

I remember when everybody was screaming peak oil, and peak coal, and peak everything. And now look at that, peak everything is pushed back another 20 years.
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Re: End of King Coal--NG Now Top Fuel for US Electricity

Unread postby KingM » Sun 08 Jul 2012, 17:29:28

dsula wrote:I remember when everybody was screaming peak oil, and peak coal, and peak everything. And now look at that, peak everything is pushed back another 20 years.


Ah, yes, the "natural gas cliff."

Image

From our very wise Montequest on July 7, 2005, almost exactly seven years ago:

Oil declines down a slope, gas declines down a cliff. The literature is replete with this fact.


And later that same year from the same font of wisdom:
Really, NG does fall off a cliff when production goes into decline. That is an undisputed fact. Even though oil and gas originate from the same organic matter, natural gas is different from oil by nature. It takes relatively little effort to extract gas. Gas doesn't taper off in production, while with oil you need to expend more energy driving the oil to the well hole. Natural Gas has a steep cliff as the pressure in the well drops and the production ceases. Unlike oil wells, the more wells you sink into a gas reserve, the more gas you will extract, but the quicker you will deplete the reserve.
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Re: End of King Coal--NG Now Top Fuel for US Electricity

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 09 Jul 2012, 01:09:09

As I understand it, he's right about individual sources. Right now, we are drilling and fracking so furiously that we are more than replacing the gas that is lost from the places that are falling off their cliffs.

We'll see how long that can last.
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Re: End of King Coal--NG Now Top Fuel for US Electricity

Unread postby dinopello » Mon 09 Jul 2012, 07:38:57

dohboi wrote:Right now, we are drilling and fracking so furiously that we are more than replacing the gas that is lost from the places that are falling off their cliffs.


Ha, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

Wait til vehicle fleets get converted and structural demand for Nat Gas is on the rise, prices start to rise and frakking actually become profitable.

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Re: End of King Coal--NG Now Top Fuel for US Electricity

Unread postby KingM » Mon 09 Jul 2012, 07:45:54

dohboi wrote:As I understand it, he's right about individual sources. Right now, we are drilling and fracking so furiously that we are more than replacing the gas that is lost from the places that are falling off their cliffs.

We'll see how long that can last.


Who knows. The only thing that seems clear to me is that the more strident and certain the opinion on this board, the more likely it is to be wrong.
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Re: End of King Coal--NG Now Top Fuel for US Electricity

Unread postby Windmills » Sat 14 Jul 2012, 02:39:49

KingM wrote:
dohboi wrote:As I understand it, he's right about individual sources. Right now, we are drilling and fracking so furiously that we are more than replacing the gas that is lost from the places that are falling off their cliffs.

We'll see how long that can last.


Who knows. The only thing that seems clear to me is that the more strident and certain the opinion on this board, the more likely it is to be wrong.


Rather like your own?

Silly way to argue. Stick to the facts. It makes you look smarter since they're apparently going your way for the moment. Run with it for a while.
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King Coal is dying article on PO.com

Unread postby Quinny » Sun 20 Apr 2014, 06:51:30

I know a few hear have commented, but I read this and thought it was total BS.

To a new visitor to the site it might make them think it was representative of the opinions generally held here. I don't know of anyone who regularly posts here who would support the article. I am against blanket censorship, and all in favour of alternative views being put, but is there no way of classifying such articles as general MSM 'news'.

It seems a bit like how the MSM always have to put a 'balanced' view forward on Climate Change, but this means putting both sides of the argument forward despite the fact that a massive majority of scientists agree that it's happening.
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Re: King Coal is dying article on PO.com

Unread postby Pops » Sun 20 Apr 2014, 07:59:21

The 1% Rag wrote:That’s the goal – the”King” is almost dead, and they’re coming for you next. Don’t kid yourself otherwise.

Here is the propaganda in question . .

I don't think that anyone stumbling on PO.com and reading the comments under that story would get the wrong idea about us, LOL.

Forbes ran a story in the same issue about how Howard Hamm (Continental Resources) singlehandedly saved America by keeping oil prices low, LOL,
http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopher ... -recovery/

But I will say that I find it interesting the attempt to portray the coal companies (oil & n. gas too) in the same light as Jews in the Holocaust. I think if I were Jewish I'd be offended at offering the Niemöller passage "First they came for the Socialists . . ." in an attempt to defend the poor oppressed coal operators.


Actually, as Forbes is the clubhouse newsletter of the .01%, it makes me wonder if instead of just the normal pandering and self-congratulations, this indicates the owners are not just feeling put upon but starting to become worried the eaters are actually growing a conscious?
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Re: King Coal is dying article on PO.com

Unread postby Quinny » Sun 20 Apr 2014, 08:43:21

I'd normally agree Pops, but the 4123 votes and 5/5 rating might make people think differently.
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Re: King Coal is dying article on PO.com

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 20 Apr 2014, 08:57:30

Quinny- What do your numbers mean? Thanks in advance.
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Re: King Coal is dying article on PO.com

Unread postby Pops » Sun 20 Apr 2014, 09:05:00

Quinny wrote:I'd normally agree Pops, but the 4123 votes and 5/5 rating might make people think differently.

I'd give some long winded explanation but the plain truth is those same numbers are at the top of every story on the blog page and I have no idea why, how to make them disappear, how to make them relevant.

Send admin a PM, that's his bailiwick.

:)
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Re: King Coal is dying article on PO.com

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 20 Apr 2014, 09:09:42

Pops - Maybe my read is wrong but I get the sense there's an implication that the "King Coal is dead" offering was generally accepted by most on the site. But given how many responses pissed on the idea I don't see it. In fact I don't recall a single response in support of the idea.
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Re: King Coal is dying article on PO.com

Unread postby Pops » Sun 20 Apr 2014, 09:16:54

You're right ROCK, I think that number is cumulative for the entire blog (our home page) and is misleading on a per-article basis.
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Re: King Coal is dying article on PO.com

Unread postby Quinny » Sun 20 Apr 2014, 09:22:32

OK Pops see it now. TBH I've never noticed it before, because I do tend to skim the articles on 'News' and sorta auto filter them before reading. PM? you mean Dave?

ROCK - the votes at the top of the story (if you hover it shows a rating).
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Re: King Coal is dying article on PO.com

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 20 Apr 2014, 09:38:24

Q - Didn't know we could register a vote. OTOH I tend to let my big mouth relay my feelings. LOL. I actually like seeing such posts. Without them we wouldn't see what Joe6pack is being feed. And we can never forget the amount of disinformation they are constantly being flooded with.
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Re: King Coal is dying article on PO.com

Unread postby KingM » Mon 21 Apr 2014, 18:06:00

Better than the crap articles about the Japanese nuclear plant that claim it's going to destroy all life on earth. Why do those get posted?
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Re: King Coal is dying article on PO.com

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 21 Apr 2014, 19:45:52

KingM wrote:Better than the crap articles about the Japanese nuclear plant that claim it's going to destroy all life on earth. Why do those get posted?

This place is dedicated to free speech about anything energy related, even the really off the wall conspiracy theorists get to have their say.
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To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: King Coal is dying article on PO.com

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 22 Apr 2014, 10:06:19

For sure: King Coal is getting deader every day. LOL

"How The U.S. Natural Gas Boom Just Caused More U.S. Coal Exports"

Thanks to the natural gas boom, carbon dioxide emissions dropped in the United States. But those emissions savings were probably completely undone thanks to U.S. coal exports.
That’s the finding from new research by CO2 Scorecard, which looked at how the U.S. coal industry increase its exports in order to deal with the rise of natural gas in the nation’s power market. Many, including the White House, have touted natural gas as a “bridge fuel” to renewable power, since burning it only releases about half the carbon emissions as coal. One problem with this argument is methane leaks, which could make natural gas every bit as bad as coal in terms of climate change. But even if the leaks aren’t an issue, the coal that natural gas replaces in the U.S. would need to stay in the ground for the climate to benefit. According to CO2 Scorecard, that didn’t happen. Instead, the coal just went to other countries.

CO2 Scorecard - Specifically, the researchers calculated that the rise of natural gas in America’s energy mix cut our carbon emissions by 86 million tons over that time period. But the spike in exports increased carbon emissions from U.S. coal burned abroad by around 149 million tons. Unfortunately, EIA data also shows that global coal consumption rose steeply over the 2007-2012 time period, suggesting the primary effect of U.S. coal exports was to drive down the fossil fuel’s global price and encourage demand.

{So it sounds that the US shares some significant responsibility for the increase in global coal consumption}

And what’s next?

Europe may replace Russian gas with US coal: While U.S. lawmakers are debating the merits of exporting natural gas to Europe to break Russia’s energy hold on the continent, one immediately exportable energy source has been overlooked: coal.

{No…it hasn’t been overlooked. Since 2012 Europe has been importing record amounts of coal from the US. Especially Germany since they’ve decided to abandon nuclear.}

Some European countries are already using U.S. coal to displace costly Russian gas. Europe’s biggest importers of American coal include Germany and the United Kingdom. “The president is doing his best to stop coal use in America by issuing emissions standards that are so stringent it is not feasible to build a coal fired power plant, but other countries are desperate for this valuable energy resource and we are exporting coal in record numbers,” Republican Kentucky Rep. Ed Whitfield told The Daily Caller News Foundation.

{“…it is not feasible to build a coal fired power plant”. Not completely true. Several years ago the president’s EPA issued the final Clean Air Permit to allow the construction of the White stallion coal burning power plant in Texas that was scheduled to burn coaled shipped in from Illinois for the next 30 years. And while there’s local resistance to expanding coal export terminals on the west coast the administration is expediting permits to expand coal export terminals on the Texas coast as well as expanding coal lease on western gov lands}

U.S. coal exports have skyrocketed in recent years. Exports have grown from about 59 million short tons of coal in 2007 to nearly 118 million short tons last year, all while imports have fallen 75 percent over that time period. “Some European countries are using U.S. coal to help displace Russian natural gas and neutralize Russia’s energy influence,” Whitfield said. “Coal exports are already having an impact on geopolitics and are helping to create American jobs and reduce our trade deficit. We can build on this success by increasing natural gas exports as well.”

{And again another idiot heard from who isn’t aware that the US is a net NG importer that only produces 93% of the NG it consumes}

Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has forced many European countries to rethink their reliance on natural gas that can be stopped at any time by President Vladimir Putin. Some analysts expect U.S. coal exports to get another boost from the EU, since it’s the only viable short-term substitute for natural gas.
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Re: King Coal is dying article on PO.com

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 21 Oct 2016, 07:48:26

An update on the "King is dead!" idea being pushed back in 2014:

From the Financial Times this week:

"Australian thermal coal, the benchmark for the vast Asian market, has hit $100 a tonne, cementing its status as the best performing commodity of the year. A 25,000 tonne cargo of high grade material for November delivery changed hands on GlobalCoal, a physical trading platform, for $100 a tonne on Tuesday. The deal means benchmark prices in Asia have now doubled since June, a move that has wrong-footed analysts and traders as China has moved to curb its domestic output of the fuel.

Thermal coal is used to generate electricity in power stations and traders have been forced to scramble to find cargoes. This year’s rally has ended a five-year bear market that saw prices fall to around $40 a tonne."

It would appear the "King Coal is dead" gang are current being chased by coal zombies. LOL.
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