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USS Fitzgerald collision

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USS Fitzgerald collision

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 17 Jun 2017, 08:11:15

How in the bleebing Hades does a US warship with state of the art radar , sonar and classified what else, we don't know about, get run into amidships by lumbering fat pig of a container ship?
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s ... an-n773521
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Re: USS Fitzgerald collision

Unread postby Cog » Sat 17 Jun 2017, 08:37:38

Its possible the cargo ship made a sudden course change and rammed them. Although the ship's captain may get blamed, he might not have been at fault. Its not like he could put on the brakes to avoid this if the container ship did something dumb. Apparently this area is quite busy with ships.
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Re: USS Fitzgerald collision

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 17 Jun 2017, 08:42:20

Cog wrote:Its possible the cargo ship made a sudden course change and rammed them. Although the ship's captain may get blamed, he might not have been at fault. Its not like he could put on the brakes to avoid this if the container ship did something dumb. Apparently this area is quite busy with ships.

A container ship of that size can't make a quick course correction and they never should have been close enough to each other for a high speed destroyer to be caught with her britches down.
Something is very wrong here.
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Re: USS Fitzgerald collision

Unread postby dirtyharry » Sat 17 Jun 2017, 08:52:10

The US armed forces all(army,air force,navy) are useless and also incompetent . They can only bully small nations and bombard innocent civilians .These guys must be blind to have this accident .
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Re: USS Fitzgerald collision

Unread postby Cog » Sat 17 Jun 2017, 08:57:06

dirtyharry wrote:The US armed forces all(army,air force,navy) are useless and also incompetent . They can only bully small nations and bombard innocent civilians .These guys must be blind to have this accident .


Could you show me on this doll where the US military touched you?

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Re: USS Fitzgerald collision

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 17 Jun 2017, 13:48:30

Cog, you think your tweet is brilliant, cute and funny. It's not, it merely suggests an obsession with physical male domination. It's also less than 144 characters.
Haven't you heard? I'm a doomer!
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Re: USS Fitzgerald collision

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 17 Jun 2017, 15:35:17

Below are some photos of the two ships and the AIS track of the container ship. Note the destroyers AIS does not show. That would mean the destroyer did not have its AIS on. Typical of US Naval vessels.

AIS is a radio based mutual interrogation system. Each ship transmits its heading, speed rate of turn and other info. The receiving ship then compares that data to its own and calculates the closest point of approach, when that will happen, and sends an alarm if it is too close.

Because the destroyer was silent, not transmitting, the container ship AIS could not calculate a collision course. But the Navy ship could.

AIS is required on vessels over 65' and optional below. Because I'm not a damn fool I have AIS and use it. That's how I know USN and USCG often do not. I can physically see them, but not on AIS.

Looking at the AIS track I see the container ship entered the screen on the bottom left. I THINK the collision occured at the first abrupt 90° turn to starboard. I THINK the container ship then moved away a bit to assess damage and then returned to the hit destroyer to render aid before moving off. Hard to be sure without both AIS tracks.

Bottom line, I'm betting the destroyer f'ed up bad.

http://gcaptain.com/high-resolution-pho ... collision/

After looking at the photos a bit more it appears the destroyer was crossing the ships bow from port to starboard (left to right) and just didn't make it. The metal is pressed toward the back of the destroyer. The marks on the container ship show scraping on the port bow from aft to bow in direction. In all likelyhood the destroyer was making a high speed pass in front of the container ship and got too close. The container ship likely made a hard starboard/right turn just before impact.
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Re: USS Fitzgerald collision

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 17 Jun 2017, 17:30:33

Newfie wrote:Below are some photos of the two ships and the AIS track of the container ship. Note the destroyers AIS does not show. That would mean the destroyer did not have its AIS on. Typical of US Naval vessels.

AIS is a radio based mutual interrogation system. Each ship transmits its heading, speed rate of turn and other info. The receiving ship then compares that data to its own and calculates the closest point of approach, when that will happen, and sends an alarm if it is too close.

Because the destroyer was silent, not transmitting, the container ship AIS could not calculate a collision course. But the Navy ship could.

AUS is required on vessels over 65' and optional below. Because I'm not a damn fool I have AIS and use it. That's how I know USN and USCG often do not. I can physically see them, but not on AIS.

Looking at the AIS track I see the container ship entered the screen on the bottom left. I THINK the commission occured at the first abrupt 90° turn to starboard. I THINK the container ship then moved away a bit to assess damage and then returned to the hit destroyer to render aid before moving off. Hard to be sure without both AIS tracks.

Bottom line, I'm betting the destroyer f'ed up bad.

http://gcaptain.com/high-resolution-pho ... collision/

After looking at the photos a bit more it appears the destroyer was crossing the ships bow from port to starboard (left to right) and just didn't make it. The metal is pressed toward the back of the destroyer. The marks on the container ship show scraping on the port bow from aft to bow in direction. In all likelyhood the destroyer was making a high speed pass in front of the container ship and got too close. The container ship likely made a hard starboard/right turn just before impact.

I think you have it about right. Of course a US war ship can't broadcast it's position in the clear as that would let any enemy target it. But it certainly knows where it is withing a couple of feet and the position ,speed and course of every thing within cruse missile range that is bigger then a floating seagull. Unless there was a bogey submarine on the sonar I can't think of a plausible reason for them to be that close to a large slow surface ship. Just have to wait and see I guess but it doesn't look good from what we know now.
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Re: USS Fitzgerald collision

Unread postby Synapsid » Sat 17 Jun 2017, 19:26:22

EVERYONE,

Will you PLEASE read your posts before you click Submit?

Newfie, I love your posts, and will click on a post just because your name is on it, but a "commission" is not a collision, and AUS is not AIS, and I am SICK of years of trying to find out what the actual post says when I run into such stuff.

I make typos, every one of us does, but can we at least INCREASE the chance that the errors will be caught and corrected?

My friends, I'm well into my eightieth decade, and my doctor, a very nice young lady, recommends that I do whatever I can to reduce stress. I'm asking for your help.
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Re: USS Fitzgerald collision

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 17 Jun 2017, 20:56:35

Synapsid wrote:EVERYONE,

Will you PLEASE read your posts before you click Submit?

...

My friends, I'm well into my eightieth decade, and my doctor, a very nice young lady, recommends that I do whatever I can to reduce stress. I'm asking for your help.


I presume you mean 80th year? Speaking of not checking your posts. We all make mistakes.

I generally try to proof read my posts, which is why they often have an edit or two, and I'll bet I still make a lot of mistakes.

To me, things like using the wrong word are getting so common on pretty much ALL comment areas on the internet, that it doesn't even bug me much anymore. IMO, it speaks very badly of the US education system, generally.
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Re: USS Fitzgerald collision

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 17 Jun 2017, 21:25:40

Synapsid,
A...My apologies.
B...My poor excuse is that I'm usually writing on an iPhone which sometimes even "corrects" correct words AND I'm too frequently pressed for time to do proper editing.

I'll strive to do better. Thanks for your feedback.
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Re: USS Fitzgerald collision

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 18 Jun 2017, 01:43:44

They have found the missing seven sailors. Drowned inside the flooded compartments.
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Re: USS Fitzgerald collision

Unread postby Cog » Sun 18 Jun 2017, 04:26:40

As bad as that is, at least the families can properly bury them instead of them being lost at sea.
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Re: USS Fitzgerald collision

Unread postby dirtyharry » Sun 18 Jun 2017, 04:30:37

Cog wrote:
dirtyharry wrote:The US armed forces all(army,air force,navy) are useless and also incompetent . They can only bully small nations and bombard innocent civilians .These guys must be blind to have this accident .


Could you show me on this doll where the US military touched you?

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My guru said " Never wrestle with a pig ,because while he is going to enjoy it ,you are going to be covered in shit " . Got it ?
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Re: USS Fitzgerald collision

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 18 Jun 2017, 14:37:16

Just a reminder....the topic is the Fitzgerald accident. There is nothing inherently political about this.

FWIW I'm following this story on a cruisers thread with some ex-Navy types and an a professional accident investigator participating.

They are as baffled as anyone by this accident. No plausible explanation. But there seems to be growing agreement that the Fitzgerald was in the wrong. I'll try to post any new of interesting information.

In the meantime you may want to look at this recent incident.

https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.reute ... SKBN17T1Q1
https://news.usni.org/2017/04/27/loss-s ... operations
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Re: USS Fitzgerald collision

Unread postby sparky » Sun 18 Jun 2017, 19:14:22

.
I would think the damage seen is rather less than what is below the waterline ,
big cargoes have a large bulb , it would have totally busted the Destroyer side below water
it could have sunk in minutes .

Military all over the world behave like louts , that's the air forces and Navies
keeping their position silent , crossing civilians roadways at high speed like teenage joyriders

on naval mishap ,
the Royal navy gutted one of its frigate during a New Zealand visit by ramming itself at high speed on a well marked Rock outcrop , the rock won

recently a Russian destroyer collided with a cattle ship in the fog
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Re: USS Fitzgerald collision

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 19 Jun 2017, 04:17:31

The most disturbing thing I have read is that the Fitzgerald may have been on auto pilot.
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Re: USS Fitzgerald collision

Unread postby EdwinSm » Mon 19 Jun 2017, 05:10:46

The BBC keeps repeating something along the lines of "Marine traffic records suggest that the container ship, the Filipino-flagged ACX Crystal, made a sudden U-turn roughly 25 minutes before the crash. It is not known why it changed course."

The implication/spin is that the "sudden turn" was the cause of the accident, and so it was the fault of the container ship....but "25 minutes" should have been enough warning for the USS Fitzgerald. I get a whiff of blame being pointed away from the military but the limited details provided [smilie=5censored.gif] makes me realise that I have no clear idea of what actually happened in the last minutes.

The major damage seems to have been below the waterline, and the berths where the sailors died were flooded.
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Re: USS Fitzgerald collision

Unread postby Cog » Mon 19 Jun 2017, 05:18:48

People might want to wait on their slander of our military men and women, who are out there laying it on the line for the country, until the investigation is over.
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Re: USS Fitzgerald collision

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 19 Jun 2017, 06:48:21

I don't think there is any slander going on but I do agree that there is a lot we don't know and it's too early to draw conclusions.

I'm also, elsewhere, seeing speculation that the container ship intentionally rammed the destroyer. That is a highly unlikely scenario, extremely unlikely.

All that said......this whole story borders in the bizzar. All we really know for sure is that someone somewhere screwed up bad. 7 dead, more hurt, careers ruined. Ugly from all angles.

I operate around large ships occasionally. I've had large ships pass me close by (<100 yards) in pea soup fog, in a restricted channel, solo. I had my AIS and radar going and we were under Halifax port control. Its not unsafe, but there is a certain pucker factor. NYC Harbor I hate. It's like trying to carry a plate of crystal through a rugby match. I over state, but you get my joy at the prospect. Yet I and many other mere mortals successfully accomplish these tasks in a daily basis. By comparison, this situation was a piece of cake. WTF!
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