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US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 06 Jun 2012, 17:19:11

Lore wrote: NG will remain a side show for most of these companies for many years to come...


Possibly----it depends on how quickly oil prices go up due to peak oil. As oil prices go higher, alternative fuels like NG become more attractive.

Some trucking lines are converting parts of their fleets to NG now.

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Re: US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

Unread postby Lore » Wed 06 Jun 2012, 17:36:43

Plantagenet wrote:
Lore wrote: NG will remain a side show for most of these companies for many years to come...


Possibly----it depends on how quickly oil prices go up due to peak oil. As oil prices go higher, alternative fuels like NG become more attractive.

Some trucking lines are converting parts of their fleets to NG now.

Image


Yes, and as more try to switch to less expensive alternatives, the prices of those will also go up accordingly. Simple law of supply and demand.

I would also add, that on an energy equivalent, NG gives you about 70% of the value of oil.
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Re: US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 15 Jun 2012, 20:26:13

Mack Trucks announces two new models for 2013 that run on Natural Gas

Mack Trucks to run on NG

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New Mack NG trucks hitting the road in 2013 will do their part to help in the fight against peak oil
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Re: US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 11 Aug 2012, 12:47:15

While the feds continue to tout costly electric cars, state goverments plan switch from gasoline to NG

state governments starting to switch fleets to NG

This will facilitate state by state growth of NG gas stations.
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Re: US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

Unread postby peripato » Mon 13 Aug 2012, 08:08:07

pstarr wrote:Here's an idea planty! Try acting like a "scientist" instead of a partisan republican "consumer".

Show us some "progress," data demonstrating an ongoing and active conversion to NG; ie. historic conversions, past, current, and projected conversion. Those numbers should demonstrate when NG use will increase enought to mitigate the ongoing decline of conventional crude production and the depletion of reserves. Yeah, that kind of stuff. Not press releases. okay? thanks :)

Indeed, what a laff. :lol: There's only about 15 million NG/CNG powered vehicles in the entire world as of last year and most of them, retain the ability to use, or even require the use of ordinary everyday petrol! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

Unread postby Pretorian » Tue 14 Aug 2012, 21:26:32

I've seen trucks working on NG decades ago.
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Re: US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

Unread postby dsula » Tue 14 Aug 2012, 22:44:24

Pretorian wrote:I've seen trucks working on NG decades ago.

Where? In Pretoria?
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Re: US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 14 Aug 2012, 23:44:27

NG vehicle sales are increasing rapidly, and are projected to reach 15 million vehicles PER YEAR globally by 2015 (sales estimate is trucks and cars combined). Key vendors dominating the NG market space include Fiat S.p.A., Ford Motor Co., Suzuki Motors Corp., Volkswagen AG,. Honda Motor Co. Ltd., Toyota Motor Corp., Bayerische Motoren Werke AG, Mercedes-Benz, Renault S.A., Capacity of Texas Inc., Cummins Westport Inc., Freightliner, Volvo, Weichai Power Co. Ltd., Altech-Eco Corp., Fuel Systems Solutions Inc., GNC Galileo S.A., Kraus Global Inc., Magneti Marelli S.p.A., and Bosch Group :)

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Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2012/08/02/468522 ... rylink=cpy
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Re: US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

Unread postby Pretorian » Wed 15 Aug 2012, 13:45:41

dsula wrote:
Pretorian wrote:I've seen trucks working on NG decades ago.

Where? In Pretoria?

No , I've seen those trucks in Soviet Union. Gasoline was ridiculously cheap , so obviously it wasn't an act of desperation.
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Re: US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 13 May 2016, 10:29:48

CNG is defiantly catching on for regional trucking and utility scale trucks. For those who are not Ohio aware Hamilton is a suburb of Cincinnati where a lot of freeways intersect. As usual much more story at link below the quote.

HAMILTON —

At the city of Hamilton’s fueling station that sells compressed natural gas for specially equipped vehicles, the price was $1.99 per gasoline-gallon-equivalent Monday, lower than the $2.14 average price that same day across Greater Cincinnati that the GasBuddy survey found for the gasoline used by most vehicles.

And the fuel Hamilton sells at its station at 2220 S. Erie Blvd. is a far greener alternative, with business growing as Rumpke and other companies — especially long-haul trucking firms — increasingly send their compressed natural gas (CNG) vehicles for refills.

When Hamilton’s city government two years ago this month broke ground on the station, “we had four vehicles, and we had no outside customers,” said Mike Gurr, field services superintendent for Hamilton’s utilities. “The idea all along was, ‘Let’s grow our business,’ and that’s what we’ve been doing, and we’ve tremendously grown from our start.”

When the station opened the station in December, 2014, the price also happened to be $1.99 a gallon.

During 2015, the first full year of operation, the station sold about 35,000 GGEs (gasoline-gallon-equivalents). Hamilton on Monday announced it signed a five-year agreement with U.S. Gain Clean Fuel to market the station so it sells significantly more — minimums of 50,000 GGEs the first year and 100,000 each of the following four. If the city extends the pact another five years, it would be for at least 200,000 annually, Gurr said.

“It helps us reduce carbon emissions,” Gurr said. “CNG is a much cleaner fuel, as opposed to alternatives like gasoline or diesel, and in addition to that, we also reduce our dependence on foreign oil.”

Butler, Warren and Preble counties all recently received Fs last week in the 2016 State of the Air report for their levels of unsafe ozone levels, which are caused by such things as vehicles and coal-burning power plants.

CNG is produced domestically, Gurr noted. And CNG prices tend to be much less volatile than for gasoline and diesel, he said.

Hamilton, which operates a utility that provides natural gas to homes and businesses, does not need trucks to supply CNG to its station: Instead, it is piped to the site, with a Hamilton gas meter monitoring the station’s consumption.


http://www.journal-news.com/news/news/l ... ion/nrBnZ/
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Re: US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 13 May 2016, 11:06:53

pstarr wrote:I have been explaining the dangers of CNG here for a decade. For highway travel range (50 miles) the gas must be compressed to 5,000-10,000 psi. This is very dangerous, explosive in an accident and potentially deadly to the auto-truck occupants. (This is why the few CNG vehicles in use are typically in short return-routes where they low pressure tanks can be refilled all the time.)

In comparison a standard small propane tank is only filled in a range between 100 and 200 psi. A scuba tank is around 1,000 psi and is consider very dangerous.

Not to mention that a highway compressor of the type to get to 5,000 psi cost $100,000


Your explanation is nice and neat in theory, but the facts on the ground show a large number of short haul and regional haul trucks have switched or are switching their fleets over to CNG.

You are assuming facts not in evidence, none of these stories is saying the CNG is being compressed to 5,000 or 10,000 psi. If you have a link to a set of specifications where that is being done please post it.

This story is about the city of Hamilton, Ohio converting its municipal fleet and encouraging contractors like its waste removal contractor to do the same. The 35,000 gge of CNG they sold in 2015 is a real fact, not some theory made up for future projections. They expect that to increase to 50,000 gge in 2016 and continue to expand in the next five years. Compared to the USA as a whole 50,000 gge isn't much, but when you add up town after town that is pursuing this pathway the aggregate does start to add up fairly significantly.

BTW if you are talking about longer haul trucks on day routes you don't need a massive tank at extreme pressure, the figures I have seen in the literature are 100 BAR aka 1470 psi. While that is a high pressure tank it is far less than the 5,000 to 10,000 psi you are calling for. I have seen video demonstrations of carbon fiber tanks with 100 BAR being pierced. A steel or aluminum tank at that pressure effectively explodes when ruptured because the metal tears and the whole thing bursts like a balloon. With a carbon fiber tank the pressure escapes rapidly through the rupture, but because of the construction the material does not tear and the tank does not explode, it vents.
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Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
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Re: US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

Unread postby ennui2 » Fri 13 May 2016, 12:33:57

pstarr wrote:Scuba tanks can be lethal if not handled properly, even if just dropped"the most common pressures are "low" (2400 to 2640 psi), "standard" (3000 psi), and "high" (3300 to 3500 psi)." I am nervous around propane filling stations. Which are at a much lower pressure. Iwould not want to be near one in a car accident.


Cars and trucks are inherently dangerous as it is. BAU continues nonetheless.
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Re: US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

Unread postby Subjectivist » Fri 13 May 2016, 15:54:36

pstarr wrote:Did I not suggest above that liquid fuel at atmospheric pressures does not require $100,000-$500,000 high-compression gas-station pumps and safety equipment.

Did I not mention the cost to build an entirely new natural gas delivery line along the truck route 90 in North Dakota and most of 80 in Nevada? Or the lack of any natural gas infrastructure in Vermont?
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It seems to me you are demanding an overnight, perfect solution. The way you write anything that isn't a total 1:1 easy substitute for diesel and/gasoline is completely useless.

The world today is not the one you expected, but that doesn't mean there is no hope and nothing will work n the future. You come across as unwilling to concede any improvements have taken place since you joined this place way back a decade ago.
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Re: US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

Unread postby kublikhan » Fri 13 May 2016, 16:12:34

Anyone see this? A CNG-EV hybrid semi. Really pricey though. Not sure how many they are going to sell when it is 3x as expensive as a diesel.

A new electric start-up, Nikola Motor Company emerged from the stealth mode on May 10, 2016. Nikola Motor Company (for friends “Nikola”), comes with an idea to offer the first electric-driven/plug-in hybrid (although Nikola states plugging it in is optional) class 8 semi-truck, called the Nikola One. The first 5,000 orders qualify to receive free CNG fuel for first million miles.

Nikola One will be capable of pulling a total gross weight of 80,000 pounds and offering up to 1,200 miles between stops. 1,200 miles is beyond the reach of any semi-truck, unless it hauls batteries instead of cargo, so Nikola opts for 320 kWh battery and turbine, which will power a generator to power wheels/recharge batteries. Nikola expects that the One will cost between $350,000 – $415,000 depending on options.

The Nikola One’s electric motors are powered by a liquid cooled 320 kWh, lithium-ion battery pack (over 30,000 lithium cells), which is charged by a proprietary onboard Nikola Motor Company turbine. The turbine automatically charges the batteries when needed and eliminates the need to ever “plug-in”. The turbine produces nearly 400 kW of clean energy, which provides ample battery power to allow the Nikola One to climb a six percent grade at max imum weight at 65 mph. A typical class 8 diesel truck under similar conditions would have a hard time reaching 35 mph. And going downhill, the Nikola One’s six electric motors absorb the braking energy normally lost and deliver it back to the batteries, increasing component life, miles per gallon, safety, and freight efficiencies while eliminating noisy engine brakes and reducing the potential for runaway trucks.
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Nikola Motor Company Presents 2,000 HP, 320 kWh Electric Nikola One Semi
The oil barrel is half-full.
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Re: US truckers switching from Diesel to NG

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sat 14 May 2016, 10:35:23

pstarr wrote:
Subjectivist wrote:It seems to me you are demanding an overnight, perfect solution. The way you write anything that isn't a total 1:1 easy substitute for diesel and/gasoline is completely useless.
No Sub. I do not demand a perfect solution, just a possible one.

I have considered CNG for several decades, entered into numerous debates. And yet have seen no evidence of a transition. There have been no game-changing technologies. Wouldn't you think that $147 oil would have initiated the transition? Do you seriously believe CNG will be a substitute at $40?

There is nothing overnight about my analysis.

Subjectivist wrote:The world today is not the one you expected, but that doesn't mean there is no hope and nothing will work n the future. You come across as unwilling to concede any improvements have taken place since you joined this place way back a decade ago.

I am sorry for my pessimism, if it brings you pain. I have sacrificed much (personally and professionally) over a very long lifetime to to create a green world. It didn't work. I deserve not to have to pretend that it is not too late. It is too late.


In the long run everything dies including ourselves, but adaptation is necessary if we are to live as we progress from conception to death.

You can say nothing is changing, but the fact that cities are contracting with a network organization like the one in that article tells a different story. The network where they are encouraging adaptation exists, and if the squirly politicians in San Fransisco killed the project there they will reap the losses from that decision. The rest of us are not stuck with there decision and I am hoping Toledo follows in the foot steps of Hamilton.

The thing is, every success story like this one builds the resume of the network and also provides hard data they can use to convince other cities with in the future. The world has not ended, the journey goes on.

Actually I just searched San Fran busses and find no evidence they ever used CNG fuel in their fleet. They use overhead gantry electric, cable cars and series diesel hybrids. Perhaps you are confusing them with some other city?
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