US Administration likes high gasoline prices

[pstarr]

Plant, just like Obama says oil and gasoline too IS A WORLD MARKET. The pipeline is intended to get the oil to the gulf coast refineries -- not gas into your car. From there IT'S A WORLD MARKET.

Every bit of oil is already in the "WORLD MARKET". If China wants to go to Alberta or Cushing Oklahoma or Seattle or New York or Texas and buy oil they can do so right now. If the US wants to go to Saudi or Beijing and buy oil we can do that now as well. The Pipeline doesn't change that a bit.

All that Obama and the Democrats do by blocking the US pipeline is destroy US jobs building the pipeline, and destroy the jobs of US workers who would have had high paying jobs at the US refineries.

so this discussion is not really about obama and the democrats wanting high oil prices? Apparently you just changed the subject once again to reflect your anti-obama obsession. i always assumed it was republican union-busting that destroyed the american working class, and stole their high-paying jobs.

[Sixstrings]

Every bit of oil is already in the "WORLD MARKET". If China wants to go to Alberta or Cushing Oklahoma or Seattle or New York or Texas and buy oil they can do so right now. If the US wants to go to Saudi or Beijing and buy oil we can do that now as well. The Pipeline doesn't change that a bit.

We're getting somewhere, you just admitted the gasoline wouldn't necessarily go to the US. And the oil going through the pipe is still priced at world market price -- that price is still going up and up.

Even if we get most of that Canadian oil, then the Chinese will just buy the Saudi oil it all washes out Plant. The core issue here, the crux of all this, is more worldwide demand than we have worldwide supply. The pipeline doesn't solve that. A pipeline moves oil it doesn't grow it. May as well let the Chinese buy it out of Vancouver and we'll keep buying it from the Saudis, it makes no damn difference so why have a pipeline ruining good farm and ranch land and possibly the water tables across the whole frickin' continent?

All that Obama and the Democrats do by blocking the US pipeline is destroy US jobs building the pipeline, and destroy the jobs of US workers who would have had high paying jobs at the US refineries.

Those are temporary jobs, what do you do with the workers after it's built? *shrugs*

You're still avoiding the crux of all this, our industry has been offshored to Asia -- building a pipeline here makes no difference, it's a world market, the industry and growing demand is still outside the US. US demand will continue to fall as the US continues to fall, meanwhile the "worldwide market" price will keep going up even if, as I said, every American is reduced to pushing a rickshaw that price is still going up.

[careinke]

And you know what, we can just bring the oil down there by train or better yet build refineries closer to the supply without a continent-spanning crude pipe.
[/b]

Interesting. I wonder what the efficiency would be for train transport vs a pipeline? Also, if I understand correctly, the opposition to the pipeline, is primarily to protect the aquifer under the pipeline. Is a train full of oil safer than a pipeline? How about a refinery built on top of the aquifer?

[pstarr]

And you know what, we can just bring the oil down there by train or better yet build refineries closer to the supply without a continent-spanning crude pipe.
[/b]

Interesting. I wonder what the efficiency would be for train transport vs a pipeline? Also, if I understand correctly, the opposition to the pipeline, is primarily to protect the aquifer under the pipeline. Is a train full of oil safer than a pipeline? How about a refinery built on top of the aquifer?

that is how it is done already and why cushing sells at a discount. the additional cost of hauling (by train or truck) the oil out is factored into the trading price, and hence it is cheaper.

[Tanada]

[Those are temporary jobs, what do you do with the workers after it's built? *shrugs*

News flash!! All construction jobs are temporary jobs. The workers will just move on to the next project which there are plenty of waiting on the back burner for funding.

I also think the worry about the aquifer is overblown. They will not be pumping finished gasoline through the line but a very heavy crude. Much easier to clean up in the event of a spill.
Considering how much energy it takes to get this bitumen free from it's sandstone base this will always be oil with a high marginal cost but we may soon be down to oils in this price range so adding unnecessary cost to it makes no sense and we may soon not have the option of replacing it with Saudi or any other ME crude.

[Plantagenet]

Even if we get most of that Canadian oil, then the Chinese will just buy the Saudi oil it all washes out Plant.

1. The US already exports refined gasoline. Its one of the bright spots in our economy. Do you really want to stop all exports of refined gasoline?

2. You assume there will be plenty of oil available in the future for everyone who wants it. If you accept Peak Oil, you should know that quite soon global oil supplies will start shrinking every year. At that point, a pipeline carrying a million barrels of oil into the US every day will be much needed.

Those are temporary jobs, what do you do with the workers after it's built?

Refinery jobs aren't temporary jobs. The US has billions of dollars of infrastructure in the refineries of the Gulf Coast. These refineries need crude to process, or the refineries will close and all the folks working there will be fired. Keystone XL will bring them lots of oil to keep them employed and keep that infrastructure in use and provide gasoline to the US.

[Pops]

<At that point, a pipeline carrying a million barrels of oil into the US every day will be much needed.>

Come on Plant,you gotta know better than that...

At a December Congressional hearing, Rep. Ed Markey (D-MA) asked the CEO of pipeline owner TransCanada whether he would agree to keep all refined products from oil sands in the United States. He declined.

It will be a few bucks cheaper maybe because it isn't shipped in but not much. And really, as you point out, the US is being outbid for product now.

Jobs:
The State Department’s “Executive Summary of the Final Environmental Impact Statement for the Proposed Keystone XL Project” predicts that the construction workforce would only “consist of approximately 5,000 t0 6,000 workers.”

More info here

Obama said to the republicans 'if you gotta have an answer now, it's no" I have no doubt it will be opened with some changes in the route.

The funny thing is, NO pipe to the gulf is what is keeping gas prices in the US down, there is no outlet so WTI at Cushing is the cheapest oil on the globe! As soon as the seaway pipe reverses this summer the price of gas is going up. When the southern half of the Keystone opens next year it will rise further.

It is amazing that on a site about peak oil, where everyone knows that gas is only going to get less and less affordable, partisanship still trumps transition. The party line that all we need to do is eliminate taxes and regulations and start a war or two and drill baby and we can go back to the good old days is just so ingrained, no amount of charts and factoids can kill it.

I really think partisanship rots the brain - no, it ossifies the brain.

[Cog]

Its not about returning to BAU. Its about reducing the logjam that Canada has in exporting its oil to its neighbor. Once the pipeline is built, Canada can vastly expand their oil sands operations and pump even more down here. We can run it down here on rail AND a pipeline.

And that is what the green-at-all-costs folks can't stand. They hope by blocking this pipeline that Canada will not be able to expand their oil sands operations.

In the downslope of global oil depletion, you will be wishing for all the oil that Canada can send down here and more.

[rangerone314]

Question, if the pipeline is built and the planned expansions to Port Arthur and Houston are also built, what prevents the oil from being refined into gasoline there and then exported overseas to customers willing to pay?

Second question, if the gasoline is exported, how does that help gas prices in the US?

Third question, why not build refineries onsite or close to the tar sands and then truck it to the US cities that will consume it?

Fourth question, Is it because that would actually lower gas prices in the US, or because China would be unhappy?

[Pops]

And that is what the green-at-all-costs folks can't stand. They hope by blocking this pipeline that Canada will not be able to expand their oil sands operations.

True. My knee jerks in the treehug direction but I can't see the logic behind driving to a protest against the pipe LOL.

In the downslope of global oil depletion, you will be wishing for all the oil that Canada can send down here and more.

For enough money Americans will be able to get all the oil they want for a long time. That pipe will make not one bit of difference. Problem is we don't have enough money to outbid the Ch-indians now so what difference will it make to have the pipe moving oil through the midwest on the way to China?
- Granted a thousand refinery workers are better than a thousand MZBs puttin out of the Ozark hills.

My overall point is the original post was a sloppy commentary favoring Drill Baby over transition.
Agree with how O is trying to move ahead or don't but it the 'Obama 'likes' high gas prices and hates jobs bit is just so much partisan pap.

[Pops]

Question, if the pipeline is built and the planned expansions to Port Arthur and Houston are also built, what prevents the oil from being refined into gasoline there and then exported overseas to customers willing to pay?

Second question, if the gasoline is exported, how does that help gas prices in the US?

Third question, why not build refineries onsite or close to the tar sands and then truck it to the US cities that will consume it?

Fourth question, Is it because that would actually lower gas prices in the US, or because China would be unhappy?

1. You're right, China is going to get the stuff in the end no matter.
2. in the short run the pipe will raise gas prices in the US because the Cushing glut discount will evaporate.
3. See no. 1 - but also pipes are cheaper.

[dinopello]

My overall point is the original post was a sloppy commentary favoring Drill Baby over transition.
Agree with how O is trying to move ahead or don't but it the 'Obama 'likes' high gas prices and hates jobs bit is just so much partisan pap.

Republicans want to deplete America's resources as quickly as possible. Would that be fair to say ?

[Pops]

Maybe. But surely Mainstream Americans believe our resources aren't 'depletable" would be fair.

The thing that surprises me isn't the mainstream - yet - this is po.com, where for 8 years we've been talking about how sad it is we didn't start transitioning as a country 20 years ago. The article quoted in the OP commentary is all about Chu explaining they can't do anything about the oil supply but they can try to transition away from oil.

One thing is sure, there are only going to be the 2 ways to proceed, either Bush/Cheney's or Obama's.

[dinopello]

One thing is sure, there are only going to be the 2 ways to proceed, either Bush/Cheney's or Obama's.

At the Federal level, I doubt we will have any kind of sustained consensus on what to do - at least for a quite a while. It's too easy to sloganeer and generate disapointment with the guys in power. All the action with regard to prepping for transition is at the local level. And, at that level it can be effective, but is not at all widespread - in fact its kind of rare, but not non-existent.

[Plantagenet]

Question, if the pipeline is built and the planned expansions to Port Arthur and Houston are also built, what prevents the oil from being refined into gasoline there and then exported overseas to customers willing to pay?

They are exporting refined gasoline now that isn't used in the Gulf area. Don't you know that?

Second question, if the gasoline is exported, how does that help gas prices in the US?

Its called the law of supply and demand. If you increase the supply of oil coming into the US by one million barrels a day coming down the Keystone XL pipeline, the price of gasoline will drop for US consumers, especially in the Gulf Coast states. Any surplus will continue to be exported, as happens now.

Third question, why not build refineries onsite or close to the tar sands and then truck it to the US cities that will consume it?

Three reasons (1) oil refineries are immensely expensive bits of infrastructure. It doesn't make much sense to spend tens of billions of dollars on new refineries in northern Alberta when you've got perfectly good old refineries with a trained workforce waiting for oil to refine already standing there along the Gulf Coast. (2) Oil refineries employ thousands of highly paid people, who in turn require tens of thousands of people to supply them with food, booze, clothing etc. Have you ever been to northern Alberta? There is NOTHING there. You wouldn't just be building new refineries in northern Alberta----you'd have to build an entire city in the wilderness to house, feed, clothe, and support the Refinery workforce----. (3) Even if you did refine it in northern ALberta, you'd still need a pipeline to get it to the USA. Do you have any idea how many trucks you'd need to bring a million barrels a day from Alberta to the USA?

[pstarr]

One thing is sure, there are only going to be the 2 ways to proceed, either Bush/Cheney's or Obama's.

At the Federal level, I doubt we will have any kind of sustained consensus on what to do - at least for a quite a while. It's too easy to sloganeer and generate disapointment with the guys in power. All the action with regard to prepping for transition is at the local level. And, at that level it can be effective, but is not at all widespread - in fact its kind of rare, but not non-existent.

I disagree. Many local municipalities have at least paid lip service to alternative transportation modalities; how many towns don't have bike trails/lanes? But I find that rather pointless;

b) It is only through the condemnation of railroad right-of-ways and private property (through the exercise of eminent domain) that train/trolly lines can be drilled through our poorly designed and dispersed auto-centric suburbia. No private company or local/state municipality has the power and authority to do this. Only a concerted National Marshal Plan for Alternative Energy and Transport could.

a) regardless, all car roads are destined sooner rather than later to become bike paths, then goat trails.

so we better get busy NOW. Does anyone here seriously believe a republican administration is capable of acting properly in the little time we have left? Ha ha ha

[rangerone314]

Question, if the pipeline is built and the planned expansions to Port Arthur and Houston are also built, what prevents the oil from being refined into gasoline there and then exported overseas to customers willing to pay?

They are exporting refined gasoline now that isn't used in the Gulf area. Don't you know that?

Yes, I did know that. That's why I brought it up.

Three reasons (1) oil refineries are immensely expensive bits of infrastructure. It doesn't make much sense to spend tens of billions of dollars on new refineries in northern Alberta when you've got perfectly good old refineries with a trained workforce waiting for oil to refine already standing there along the Gulf Coast. (2) Oil refineries employ thousands of highly paid people, who in turn require tens of thousands of people to supply them with food, booze, clothing etc. Have you ever been to northern Alberta? There is NOTHING there. You wouldn't just be building new refineries in northern Alberta----you'd have to build an entire city in the wilderness to house, feed, clothe, and support the Refinery workforce----. (3) Even if you did refine it in northern ALberta, you'd still need a pipeline to get it to the USA. Do you have any idea how many trucks you'd need to bring a million barrels a day from Alberta to the USA?

How many tank cars? Canadian National Railway (CN on the stock exchange) runs from Alberta and into the US, I believe, shaped like a "T" from the Pacific Northwest to Halifax in the East and down to New Orleans.

Building an entire city to house, feed, clothe & support the refinery workforce... I bet a lot of Americans could come up with construction equipment to help build... sounds like a lot more jobs than for a silly pipeline. And I think it was 7 outdated refineries (6 in the US coasts & 1 in Europe) that are shutting down that will also drive gas prices higher.

It would be an ambitious project, and would require more drive and imagination than the current Demopublicans in power.

[Keith_McClary]

It doesn't make much sense to spend tens of billions of dollars on new refineries in northern Alberta when you've got perfectly good old refineries with a trained workforce waiting for oil to refine already standing there along the Gulf Coast. (2) Oil refineries employ thousands of highly paid people, who in turn require tens of thousands of people to supply them with food, booze, clothing etc.

Some Canadians think we are stupid to export raw materials like crude. We should have those jobs refining it to gasoline, petrochemicals and finished products for export to the US:

[Cog]

President Romney will fast-track the approval of the Keystone next year.