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U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 27 Apr 2017, 17:49:29

Cog wrote:We cured Japan and Germany of their mental disease back in WW2. We can cure the North Koreans of theirs.

At what cost? Do you really think the US is immune to, say, Chinese cyber attacks?

I'm not saying do nothing. I'm saying that this is a precarious situation, and the potential consequences are huge.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 27 Apr 2017, 18:06:32

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:Just turning the cash N. Korea is wasting on it's military towards agriculture and economic development would go a long way towards fixing the problems they have.

As in the US, say towards infrastructure spending and jobs -- if we'd use our military only for our defense (instead of interventionist adventures), and have our partners pay their fair share where we're expected to be "the tip of the sphere" for things like keeping oil transit fairly safe in the Persian Gulf, etc.

The tip of the sphere? How about the point of the spear. That might work better.
I know "dam you auto correct!! just saying.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 27 Apr 2017, 18:08:20

Outcast,

My personal opinion, gut feeling, is China does NOT want this to flare up into a hot war. They will squash it before it gets out of control, or at least intend to. NK May suprise them, and that is indeed dangerous.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 27 Apr 2017, 18:36:05

Newfie wrote:Outcast,

My personal opinion, gut feeling, is China does NOT want this to flare up into a hot war. They will squash it before it gets out of control, or at least intend to. NK May suprise them, and that is indeed dangerous.

Kim dumb fat has assassinated more then one general that had some Chinese leanings. That brings up the question of what options do the Chinese actually have to control Kim?
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 27 Apr 2017, 19:17:34

Any hot war involving China & the US will cause a credit crisis, will crash markets, already at near or minus zero bank rates. Of course China doesn't want that.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Cog » Thu 27 Apr 2017, 20:21:00

If the Norks didn't have nuclear weapons and developing long range ballistic missiles and routinely threatened to nuke their neighbors, we would have a good laugh about it over a few beers. But they do have nuclear weapons and are threatening to use them against their neighbors. A condition that is not tolerable to the US or its allies.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 27 Apr 2017, 21:05:55

Agreed Cog. Kim is pushing the big boys in the yard. Someone will make some kind of adjustment to stabilize the situation. I just think China is the most likely actor, followed by Russia. It is unlikely the USA will do anything except threaten and maybe make some feints to keep prodding China.

I have a very hard time envisioning any solution that ends up with a united Korea.

It may be that the military is so loyal to Kim that they would die for him, or fight China, which is the same thing.

Who knows, Kim may take a red pill and shut up for a while. That's probably the last thing Trump wants. That leaves him with an unresolved problem and makes it his problem.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Thu 27 Apr 2017, 22:19:52

the odd thing here for me is trying to understand Kim's motivation.
Yeah OK it's good to threaten the world superpowers with the hopes of a "Mouse that Roared" outcome. But that sort of manipulation requires a bit of finesse which Kim J has not demonstrated. For all intents and purposes he truly looks like a madman who for crazy reasons controls a huge amount of ordinance.
It seems to me that there is only one solution here, one that the CIA was OK with back in the sixties but now is, apparently, illegal.
No matter what kind of "deal" happens here to settle him down there is no question that he is a danger to the entire world. He must realize that unless he is incredibly crazy/stupid/mentally challenged. As a consequence unless he has a death wish why is he wandering down this crazed path?
I've read the various pundits views about how this is somehow "shrewd" but as far as I can see it is the absolute dumbest thing to ever do. He has nothing to hold the world to ransom for (if North Korea disappeared off the face of Asia pretty much no one would notice) and his threats about sending missiles (nuclear or otherwise) to the US or Japan etc are at best a slight worry given that the two countries couldn't shoot them down. His threats against South Korea in terms of conventional attack are serious but if he started that I doubt the rest of the world would have a problem with the US or China turning the whole country into a parking lot very quickly.
To my mind this is bizarre theatre. He needs to be gone and I am surprised he is still in power. Must suit someone's view of what they want geopolitically because outside the US, China and Russia both have well trained special forces who could make Kim J's demise look like a shaving accident.
It is all very strange to my mind.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 28 Apr 2017, 05:55:20

I think the simplest explanation is that he is bat shit crazy. He grew up in a world where he was treated as a God and came to belive it.

From his point of view not much has changed. Maybe he is in denial, many of us here see string denial in our culture, maybe he and his country just have a different form of denial.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 28 Apr 2017, 13:16:38

Newfie wrote:I think the simplest explanation is that he is bat shit crazy. He grew up in a world where he was treated as a God and came to belive it.


Communists are not crazy. They just have very different politics then we are used to.

The North Korean Communist regime, as is common in fascist and communist dictatorships, glorifies the great leader in order to get the masses to follow the party line. Again, this is nothing new or unusual---its pretty much standard practice in communist countries.

Cheers!

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All hail the great leader of the people, Kim Il-Sung
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Cog » Fri 28 Apr 2017, 16:27:28

Breaking news with few details.

http://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/28/north-ko ... eport.html

North Korea test-fired a ballistic missile on Saturday in local time, Korean news service Yonhap reported citing South Korea's military.

Yonhap reported that the test appears to have failed.

The incident comes as the United States reconsiders its strategy in dealing with the isolated nation.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 28 Apr 2017, 20:20:55

Plant,

Was Stalin crazy?

Hitler?
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Squilliam » Fri 28 Apr 2017, 20:44:54

Almost everyone thinks that they are the hero of their own story. Trump, Hillary, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao etc all probably thought that they were the 'good guys'. The problem is probably more in our own heads than in theirs when it comes to conceptualising these people. Where do most people get their ideas about these kinds of people? Fiction. In fiction the 'bad guy' is almost like a comical jester often in their incompetence. Real life is far more complex.
To use a keyboard is to be at war.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Cog » Fri 28 Apr 2017, 21:02:36

Crazy not in the looney tunes sense but crazy in the sense of making very bad judgments. Kim is probably assuming that President Trump will act like every president that his country has ever locked horns with.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 29 Apr 2017, 01:09:19

Newfie wrote:
Was Stalin crazy?

Hitler?


The word "crazy" has divergent meanings. It can mean complete insanity, i.e. disassociation from reality. It can also mean someone who loses their temper, i.e. "he went crazy and started yelling when I told him that"

I'm using the term as a synonym for insanity, i.e. a disassociation from reality to the point that someone can't function in the world.

I don't know much about Stalin's career, but I would argue that Hilter was not insane in the early stages of his career. He functioned in the world very well---he built a successful political movement, was a mesmerizing orator, had strong personal relationships with colleagues and his mistress, became the leader of Germany, negotiated and completed treaties and alliances with Italy and the USSR, etc. etc.

However, I think HItler began to lose his mind during WWII, probably due to heavy drug use. He became addicted to opiates and other drugs after 1941. At about the same Hitler made a series of disastrous decisions, including deciding to invade his erstwhile allies in the USSR.

Hitler's well known irrational demands that his generals send imaginary armies and divisions to the front in the USSR,--- i.e. units that had already been destroyed--- clearly show that by 1944 he was delusional about what was going on in the real world , i.e. I would say at that point he had gone "crazy."
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 29 Apr 2017, 01:21:15

Plantagenet wrote:However, I think HItler began to lose his mind during WWII, probably due to heavy drug use. He became addicted to opiates and other drugs after 1941. At about the same Hitler made a series of disastrous decisions, including deciding to invade his erstwhile allies in the USSR.

Hitler's well known irrational demands that his generals send imaginary armies and divisions to the front in the USSR,--- i.e. units that had already been destroyed--- clearly show that by 1944 he was delusional about what was going on in the real world , i.e. I would say at that point he had gone "crazy."

I think you have that about right. You have to wonder what drugs Kim kicks back with after a long day?
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 29 Apr 2017, 12:25:04

Kim grew up in a world where his Grandfather and Father were idolized. He knew that role would pass to him. Who knows how he was really raised and how he was treated and taught how to think of himself. It maybe that he has bought into the silly story line he is selling his people and the world.

Drugs? I don't know. But power is a wicked awsome drug in its own right.

Durant says Kim is out to end the world. I don't know why he is saying that. Maybe just yapping or maybe he knows something.

But in the end it seems clear to me Kim is a nut job.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Cog » Tue 20 Jun 2017, 14:58:16

From Trump's latest tweet:

"While I greatly appreciate the efforts of President Xi & China to help with North Korea, it has not worked out. At least I know China tried!"

Do any of you read anything in this latest tweet? Sounds vaguely ominous.

Image
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 20 Jun 2017, 15:11:08

Cog wrote:From Trump's latest tweet:

"While I greatly appreciate the efforts of President Xi & China to help with North Korea, it has not worked out. At least I know China tried!"

Do any of you read anything in this latest tweet? Sounds vaguely ominous.

Image


As Bill Clinton showed, one of the best things a President can do to boost his own stature when facing impeachment is to start a little war in some far away foreign land.

Its not like North Korea doesn't deserve to have its nuclear weapons taken away, but it won't hurt Trump's poll numbers to do a Bill Clinton and go to war against an evil little country either.

Cheers!
"Its a brave new world"
---President Obama, 4/25/16
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 20 Jun 2017, 19:19:02

Cog,
I don't know. It's Trump you are asking about. Best to just wait and see.
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