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Typewriters vs The NSA

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Typewriters vs The NSA

Unread postby Subjectivist » Fri 23 Jan 2015, 18:35:10

When Russia went back to using typewriters instead of word processors in 2013 a lot of people treated it as a joke. As in ha ha Russia is afraid of the NSA snooping through their computer files.

Well with very little fanfare or comment Germany decided to follow the same path last year when they learned that the Obama Administration had been tapping phone calls and emails of Angela Merkle.

If the National Security Agency can get access to any computer it likes, then maybe it’s time to stop using computers to store state secrets. That seems to be the logic behind last week’s admission by German politician Patrick Sensburg that Germany has contemplated using typewriters to compose sensitive documents in the wake of the revelations by Edward Snowden last year.

During a July 14 interview on the Morgenmagazin TV show, Sensburg, who is leading the Bundestag’s parliamentary inquiry into NSA espionage in Germany, was asked whether he had considered using typewriters to foil international espionage efforts and replied, “As a matter of fact, we have—and not electronic models either.”

“Really?” asked the interviewer. Sensburg confirmed: “Yes, no joke.”

And why should it be a joke? I’ve long believed that the safest place to store a secret is in a notebook in a locked box under your bed. There’s something to be said for taking the most sensitive and secret information as far offline as you can.

For all that it may seem ludicrous to imagine high-level government operatives tapping away at mechanical machines from the 1920s, they could do worse. In fact, Germany is not the first country to consider such a step backward in time—a Russian security agency purchased about $13,000 worth of electric typewriters soon after Snowden’s initial leaks.

Typewriters potentially serve two purposes for governments concerned about the Snowden leaks. For one, the old-fashioned machines that Grandma wrote on back before word processors render the high-tech interception and espionage techniques detailed in the leaked documents entirely useless. But typewritten documents can also help governments guard against their own internal leaks because each machine has a distinct typing pattern, or signature, that makes it possible to identify which device any document was written on. In other words, a leaked memo composed on a typewriter could be traced back to a specific machine, potentially making it easier to identify its source.

Of course, typewriting—or even handwriting—secrets does not preclude espionage. Countries were spying on one another back when secret messages were written on papyrus, and while a return to older technology cuts off some modes of access that can be exploited by spies, those quaint manual Olivettis have their own vulnerabilities. The NSA’s sophisticated man-in-the-middle attacks may be useless when it comes to intercepting typewritten documents, but physical printed pages mean that real live men in the middle—people delivering the messages—may be able to catch a glimpse of any secrets.

http://www.slate.com/articles/technolog ... pying.html

So this is the brave new world we are facing folks, instead of quietly being in the snooping business human nature caused people to boast to politicians to make them happy and get bigger budgets. Politicians who couldn't keep a secret if their own lives depended on it let word get out. Mr. Snowden heard the rumors, believed them, and spread proof supporting the rumors far and wide.

I can't blame any one person for this mess, every step came from human nature. Lots of people snoop on their neighbors or eavesdrop on conversations in public places. Lots of people gossip what they hear from doing it. High power expensive technology allows the NSA to read this as soon as I post it. The problem comes because presumably adult national leaders also like to gossip and as a result the extent of our snooping became embarrassing public knowledge.
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Re: Typewriters vs The NSA

Unread postby JMB » Fri 23 Jan 2015, 20:08:34

There are two kinds of manual electric typewriters. One "plain electric" where the motor powers the keys. The other is "electric-electronic" that uses electronic circuits to produce the font. These can be spied on just as easy as a computer.
The most secure is a non-electric. Better yet is pencil and paper.
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Re: Typewriters vs The NSA

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sat 24 Jan 2015, 21:45:08

JMB wrote:There are two kinds of manual electric typewriters. One "plain electric" where the motor powers the keys. The other is "electric-electronic" that uses electronic circuits to produce the font. These can be spied on just as easy as a computer.
The most secure is a non-electric. Better yet is pencil and paper.


Well if you want an electronic typewriter you could build something with a brain like the old Palmpilot that has only onboard hardware with no connection to outside input or output. The problem is, if all you are using it for is word processing hiring a competent typist as was done from 1870-1990 would be more efficient.
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Re: Typewriters vs The NSA

Unread postby SILENTTODD » Sun 25 Jan 2015, 02:53:15

Image

Give me an old IBM Selectronic typewriter any day! Like the one I learned to type with in high school in 1970. I have no idea how that ball worked, but it moved faster than anyone could possible type or follow with your eye.

No internet connection(yes,people once communicated without it), so no one would know what you typed unless you saw the paper.
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Re: Typewriters vs The NSA

Unread postby davep » Sun 25 Jan 2015, 05:32:53

Even the NSA sometimes avoids network connections for the most sensitive data:

Image

Sneakernet = walking from one machine to another over an "air-gap" with the data.
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Re: Typewriters vs The NSA

Unread postby dolanbaker » Sun 25 Jan 2015, 08:13:20

davep wrote:Even the NSA sometimes avoids network connections for the most sensitive data:

Image

Sneakernet = walking from one machine to another over an "air-gap" with the data.

A lot of organisations use systems similar to that and what is not shown on that diagram is the "offline encryption" systems that the data is passed through before it goes onto the next section.

It used to be punched paper tape.
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Re: Typewriters vs The NSA

Unread postby davep » Sun 25 Jan 2015, 08:46:11

dolanbaker wrote:
davep wrote:Even the NSA sometimes avoids network connections for the most sensitive data:

Image

Sneakernet = walking from one machine to another over an "air-gap" with the data.

A lot of organisations use systems similar to that and what is not shown on that diagram is the "offline encryption" systems that the data is passed through before it goes onto the next section.

It used to be punched paper tape.


What do you mean by offline encryption systems? Why would they be inherently more powerful than any robust encryption?
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Re: Typewriters vs The NSA

Unread postby dolanbaker » Sun 25 Jan 2015, 10:17:54

They use "one time codes" and it's impossible to connect to them in any way.
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Re: Typewriters vs The NSA

Unread postby davep » Sun 25 Jan 2015, 10:29:44

Do you have any more info? A one time code in itself isn't necessarily robust. I'm genuinely curious.
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Re: Typewriters vs The NSA

Unread postby BobInget » Sun 25 Jan 2015, 11:34:16

Do actual humans need to be in the loop at all? Obvious weakness.
Eliminate people from the process completely. Computers make every decision.
As soon a humans find a secret, they can't wait to used it to some advantage.

What are secrets anyway?
Usually, causes for acute embarrassment for leadership. Sometimes chemical formula.

CIA Declassifies Oldest Documents in U.S. Government Collection

April 19, 2011

The Central Intelligence Agency today declassified the United States Government’s six oldest classified documents, dating from 1917 and 1918. These documents, which describe secret writing techniques and are housed at the National Archives, are believed to be the only remaining classified documents from the World War I era. Documents describing secret writing fall under the CIA’s purview to declassify.

“These documents remained classified for nearly a century until recent advancements in technology made it possible to release them,” CIA Director Leon E. Panetta said. “When historical information is no longer sensitive, we take seriously our responsibility to share it with the American people.”

One document outlines the chemicals and techniques necessary for developing certain types of secret writing ink and a method for opening sealed letters without detection. Another memorandum dated June 14, 1918 – written in French – reveals the formula used for German secret ink.

“The CIA recognizes the importance of opening these historical documents to the public,” said Joseph Lambert, the Agency’s Director of Information Management Services. “In fiscal year 2010 alone, the Agency declassified and released over 1.1 million pages of documents.”

The documents will be available on CIA.gov and in the CIA Records Search Tool (CREST) at the National Archives in College Park, Maryland. CREST currently houses over 10 million pages of declassified Agency documents. Since 1995, the Agency has released over 30 million pages as a result of Executive Orders, the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA), the Privacy Act, and mandatory declassification reviews.
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Re: Typewriters vs The NSA

Unread postby dolanbaker » Sun 25 Jan 2015, 11:50:58

davep wrote:Do you have any more info? A one time code in itself isn't necessarily robust. I'm genuinely curious.

Having off-line encryption ensures that the cipher is in absolute isolation from any other equipment thus preventing any form of trojan horse or data capture type of virus from ever capturing that data.

Short of having a surveillance device or a spy in the same place, the data is secure.
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Re: Typewriters vs The NSA

Unread postby SILENTTODD » Sun 25 Jan 2015, 13:04:07

SILENTTODD wrote:Image

Give me an old IBM Selectronic typewriter any day! Like the one I learned to type with in high school in 1970. I have no idea how that ball worked, but it moved faster than anyone could possibly type or follow with your eye.

No internet connection(yes,people once communicated without it), so no one would know what you typed unless you saw the paper.
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Re: Typewriters vs The NSA

Unread postby davep » Sun 25 Jan 2015, 13:50:19

dolanbaker wrote:
davep wrote:Do you have any more info? A one time code in itself isn't necessarily robust. I'm genuinely curious.

Having off-line encryption ensures that the cipher is in absolute isolation from any other equipment thus preventing any form of trojan horse or data capture type of virus from ever capturing that data.

Short of having a surveillance device or a spy in the same place, the data is secure.


If the security is through being offline, what benefit is the cipher? The data could be stolen by somebody internally as you mentioned (and surveillance devices are not unheard of), and in that case it's only as good as the cipher algorithm implementation (in the same way as online cryptography).

I guess one of the benefits is having hardware encryption so the encryption key isn't easy to steal, but that again depends on the implementation. It may also mean keys can't be easily changed (if the keys can be changed, they're not hardware and are therefore more vulnerable). Anyway, just thinking out loud about the attack surface and potential benefits. Any such security can only ever mitigate risk, it can't eliminate it. The only way of removing risk, generally speaking, is to remove the functionality.
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Re: Typewriters vs The NSA

Unread postby dolanbaker » Sun 25 Jan 2015, 14:09:53

I think that there is a slight misunderstanding here, the data is encrypted off line and then transferred to an on line system to be transmitted.
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Re: Typewriters vs The NSA

Unread postby davep » Sun 25 Jan 2015, 14:30:39

dolanbaker wrote:I think that there is a slight misunderstanding here, the data is encrypted off line and then transferred to an on line system to be transmitted.


Ah, I see. So it's ensuring the encryption key can't be compromised. I guess they would use really strong encryption too. Fair enough.

You'd still need to ensure that both offline endpoints have the correct keys (assuming it goes offline at both transmission and reception ends, or you lose the benefit). This may be subject to a separate keygen algorithm that itself could prove a weak point (unless the keys themselves are transmitted by sneakernet using the likes of DVDs that can't infect via malware, rather than disks or USB keys).

I'm assuming by offline that you mean a network that has no physical connection to the internet. There have been some scary air-gap exploits discovered recently, but they probably know about them too.
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Re: Typewriters vs The NSA

Unread postby ennui2 » Sun 01 Feb 2015, 12:02:51

Spying preexists the internet. You close off one gap, it opens up another.
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