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Trump tears up Obama agreement with Cuba

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Trump tears up Obama agreement with Cuba

Unread postby Cog » Fri 16 Jun 2017, 13:21:18

This is what I voted for and I'm glad Trump ripped to shreds the normalization with Cuba.

New conditions now apply:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-cuba- ... e-updates/

1) President Trump said the U.S. won't negotiate with Cuba until it meets conditions like scheduling free elections and releasing political prisoners.

2)The policy begins with strictly enforcing U.S. law, Mr. Trump said. No sanctions on Cuba will be lifted until Cuba releases all political prisoners, and Cuba legalizes all party and schedules free elections.

3) The previous administration's easing of restrictions on travel and trade does not help the Cuban people, they only enrich the Cuban regime,
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Re: Trump tears up Obama agreement with Cuba

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 16 Jun 2017, 17:13:48

Cog wrote:The previous administration's easing of restrictions on travel and trade does not help the Cuban people, they only enrich the Cuban regime,


Thats debatable.

I agree with Trump that Obama basically abandoned Cuban dissidents in order to sign an accord with Cuba, but we already know Obama was the world's worst negotiator. Nonetheless there were some good things about this opening up to Cuba.

I visited Cuba last year shortly before Obama opened it up. I went through the process of getting a US permit---I went as part of an "educational" group. I'm very pleased I got to see Cuba before it got buried by hordes of tourists.

Yes the larger hotels like the famous Hotel Nacional in Havana were nationalized by Fidel decades ago, and dollars spent there go straight into the Castro brother's pockets (or the regimes pockets --- in a dictatorship like Cuba there isn't much difference).

But there is a large and growing micro-economy of private restaurants (called paladars), taxi drivers, tour guides, etc. that partly rely on US visitors, and IMHO the creation of a vibrant private sector in Cuba filled people friendly to the US probably does more to undermine the idiotic communist propaganda and the moribund socialist economy that most Cubans are stuck in then the embargo ever did.

Cuban and North Korea are the last two communist countries, and they are like living museums of communism----. I can understand getting tough with North Korea because they pose a real threat, but the Cubans are like our lost brothers.

The parable of the prodigal son teaches us to welcome back our lost sons and lost brothers, no matter where they have been.

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Cuba reminds me of the parable of the prodigal son. We should welcome them back as friends and brothers

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Re: Trump tears up Obama agreement with Cuba

Unread postby Cog » Fri 16 Jun 2017, 17:18:50

eight more years of sanctions won't hurt anything.
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Re: Trump tears up Obama agreement with Cuba

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 16 Jun 2017, 17:36:21

Cog wrote:eight more years of sanctions won't hurt anything.


Hard to say.

Cuba is in a delicate economic state right now, since their socialist brothers in Venezuela have destroyed the economy there and the massive aid that Venezuela has been sending to Cuba is drying up.

Maybe Trump will get lucky and the Maduro regime will collapse in Venezuela and the Cuba regime will topple soon after.

On the other hand, pushing on Cuba right now just Raul and Fidel are getting ready to die retire may empower the remaining hard line communists again, and they may decide crack down on the nascent private sector again.

Yes, Trump may get lucky-----but he isn't striking me as a "lucky" president right now. I'm starting to worry about everything going to hell on his watch.

Cheers!

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Re: Trump tears up Obama agreement with Cuba

Unread postby Cog » Fri 16 Jun 2017, 21:30:16

If communism is a superior business model, then the Castro brothers should have no problems with the US re-applying sanctions. I have found that to judge the merit of an idea is to find out who is against it.

So far, the media, Europe, Democrats, and leftists hate the idea of what Trump is doing. I'm quite comfortable that Trump is doing the right thing here.
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Re: Trump tears up Obama agreement with Cuba

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 17 Jun 2017, 16:48:01

I've yet to hear anyone who has significant first hand knowledge of Cuba, and who does not have some personal stake in the Castro regime, recommend a hard line. While they generally acknowledge some political difficulties and abuses they also generally feel very positive of the Cuban people and feel they have more to gain by engagement than by sanctions.
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Re: Trump tears up Obama agreement with Cuba

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 17 Jun 2017, 19:38:18

Newfie wrote:I've yet to hear anyone who has significant first hand knowledge of Cuba, and who does not have some personal stake in the Castro regime, recommend a hard line. While they generally acknowledge some political difficulties and abuses they also generally feel very positive of the Cuban people and feel they have more to gain by engagement than by sanctions.


You know Newfie, I have a wealth of information I could share having personal friendships with Cubans both in Cuba and in Miami. I do share stories one and one with guests here at times but I am hesitant on a public forum like this.

The best source of information are the cubans themselves. Within the Cuban American community there is now quite a split generation wise, the majority of 2nd and 3rd generation that were born of first generation immigrants since 1960 are by and large now supporting the end of the embargo. They did not experience the displacement the 1st generation did. The 1st generation of immigrants are still in favor of the embargo but like Fidel and Raul they are a dead or dying demographic.


More info:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/s ... ll/2210950

The Bendixen & Amandi poll showed 44 percent supported normalizing relations; 48 percent opposed it.

Those Cuban Americans born in the United States supported the normalization effort by 64-33 percent. Those born in Cuba opposed it 53-38 percent. Of those born in Cuba, those who emigrated before Mariel in 1980 opposed the deal 64-29 percent. Those who came after Mariel were split, with 45 percent in favor and 44 percent opposed.
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Re: Trump tears up Obama agreement with Cuba

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 19 Jun 2017, 02:57:52

See this video clip...

https://www.nytimes.com/video/us/politi ... title-area

This move by Trump is against the long term interests of the Republican party. Younger Cuban Americans, the demographic that will be around for decades, are against this while the demographic that supports it is old and dying.

It's just plainly dumb. Obama didn't catalyse the changes in Cuba, he just adjusted American policy to a momentum that was already accelerating. Trump trying to reverse this just seems totally out of step.
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Re: Trump tears up Obama agreement with Cuba

Unread postby Cog » Mon 19 Jun 2017, 05:07:21

Perhaps Trump is more interested in the long term interests of the USA than his own party. Something I'm sure Obama never considered in his decision making process.
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Re: Trump tears up Obama agreement with Cuba

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 19 Jun 2017, 08:01:42

Cog wrote:Perhaps Trump is more interested in the long term interests of the USA than his own party. Something I'm sure Obama never considered in his decision making process.


Maybe he can round up all those geriatric Cubans in Miami and make a 2nd go at the Playa Giron?
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