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Re: Trump = Climate Terrorist

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 01 Jan 2017, 23:33:00

?????

Fewer and far worse services, jobs, roads, schools, clean water, food safety, air quality, FEMA emergency response, parks, reliable science...

Destruction of these and many others will affect us all in very negative ways (except, again, for the top .01% or so).

Maybe some middle and lower class conservatives still think that the gov doesn't supply anything of value.

They are about to find out otherwise.
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Re: Trump = Climate Terrorist

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 01 Jan 2017, 23:37:51

dohboi wrote:?????

Fewer and far worse services, jobs, roads, schools, clean water, food safety, air quality, FEMA emergency response, parks, reliable science...

Destruction of these and many others will affect us all in very negative ways (except, again, for the top .01% or so).

Maybe some middle and lower class conservatives still think that the gov doesn't supply anything of value.

They are about to find out otherwise.

The tax payers (including the .01 percent)supply all the things of value. The government being between the tax payer and the recipient skims off and wastes more then half of the costs.
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Re: Trump = Climate Terrorist

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 02 Jan 2017, 17:40:46

Soooo, you don't get anything from roads, you've never used any drugs developed in gov funded universities, you don't use the internet...ummm

I think somebody is in some kind of denial (or in a conservative-propaganda-induced coma) :lol: :lol:
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Re: Trump = Climate Terrorist

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 02 Jan 2017, 20:03:56

dohboi wrote:Soooo, you don't get anything from roads, you've never used any drugs developed in gov funded universities, you don't use the internet...ummm

I think somebody is in some kind of denial (or in a conservative-propaganda-induced coma) :lol: :lol:
On the contrary I have spent my entire career working for the government building and maintaining roads and other infrastructure. My children have attended government funded universities and now work for the government. It is from this inside view that I say that half of the money is wasted.
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Re: Trump = Climate Terrorist

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 02 Jan 2017, 20:30:36

VT,
You are an optimist to peg it at half.

Unless you consider it workfare for excess population.
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Re: Trump = Climate Terrorist

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 02:33:40

And the private sector never wastes money?

Clearly, there are lots of improvement that can be made in many government sponsored areas. As citizens, we have some ability to demand such improvements. Not so much when everything is in the hands of private corporations.
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Re: Trump = Climate Terrorist

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 05:47:03

dohboi wrote:And the private sector never wastes money?

Clearly, there are lots of improvement that can be made in many government sponsored areas. As citizens, we have some ability to demand such improvements. Not so much when everything is in the hands of private corporations.


The key difference being if you waste your money that is your business but if the government wastes my money it is my business. Not really hard to understand now is it?
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Re: Trump = Climate Terrorist

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 06:17:23

Newfie wrote:VT,
You are an optimist to peg it at half.

Unless you consider it workfare for excess population.

Note I said in one of the posts above "More then half". :)
The exact figure is immaterial as we will have a devil of a time getting them to reduce waste by even ten percent. We should go ahead and get that much done before we worry about the ultimate goal.
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Re: Trump = Climate Terrorist

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 08:31:34

dohboi wrote:And the private sector never wastes money?

Clearly, there are lots of improvement that can be made in many government sponsored areas. As citizens, we have some ability to demand such improvements. Not so much when everything is in the hands of private corporations.


Yes corporation can and do waste a lot. Large private sector corporations can be as bad as the public sector. How does this devalue the original comment?

The dark side of this coin is that it is those inefficiencies that keep many people employed. It is a kind of workfare. The issue is that when we make things more efficient we make people less valuable. We get rid of old machines that are inefficient. We don't get rid of excess population when it becomes inefficient. We make up shit for them to do, hence the rise of consumerisim.

The best way to deal with excess consumerism is to reduce the population so that we don't need to make up stuff for people to "need" and have less people to support to boot.
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Re: Trump = Climate Terrorist

Unread postby onlooker » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 08:40:24

As much as I believe consumerism got out of hand, excess population as has been said does make every problem worse
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Re: Trump = Climate Terrorist

Unread postby dissident » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 11:26:26

People who fear the yoke of government dream of corporate utopias. Do they really think that such corporate utopias will have none of the pathologies of government? Did the coal miners of the 1920s in West Virginia live as free men or as serfs? In this banana republic era of the US the government was basically a whore for the corporations and its primary task was to protect their interests.

I will take elected government over corporate fascism dressed up as democracy any day. The problem is that the masses are not vigilant. They start to assume things that are no longer true and to believe without question their information sources. The masses are always more than 50% of the oppression problem.
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Re: Trump = Climate Terrorist

Unread postby onlooker » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 11:42:36

So true dissident, the govt. of the US at this point is nothing but a front, you can call it a shell company for naked financial interests such as banks and other corporations
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Re: Trump = Climate Terrorist

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 11:47:28

Yes, excellent points, dis!
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Re: Trump = Climate Terrorist

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 16:38:16

Let's start a list of the things a Federal government is not supposed to do. I'll start.

1. Reduce the surplus population. Just the opposite, in fact - they are charged with public health, including all matters related to safety, reducing infant mortality, and lengthening the lifespan. Bottom line: they are increasing the population, and that is their proper role.

2. Preserve natural resources. Just the opposite, in fact - they operate National Forests for wood harvests, sell mining and oil drilling leases, and oversee the exploitation of all manner of natural resources. That's what they are there for.

3. Alter the climate in any way including warming, fighting warming, or anything else.

4. Infringe any of the rights of a citizen, as defined in Amendments 1-10 of the US Constitution, aka The Bill of Rights.

I could go on, but you get the idea. Those four should get the ball rolling. That disaster of a POTUS named Obama was the worst thing that ever happened to this country as he took it upon himself to make directives in areas that no POTUS had ever ventured into before, and had no place being.

Trump will almost certainly be a major improvement over THAT. Now either discuss what topics I have listed, or add to it if you are of a mind to.

But STOP SNIVELING over what somebody who is not yet POTUS has not yet done. Get a life.
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Re: Trump = Climate Terrorist

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 16:49:53

While I agree Obama was pretty poor and that we should give Trump a chance, not condem him before him even starts I pretty strongly disagree with your first four points. The Federal government has an obligation to the security of the country.
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Re: Trump = Climate Terrorist

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 17:17:01

Newfie wrote:While I agree Obama was pretty poor and that we should give Trump a chance, not condem him before him even starts I pretty strongly disagree with your first four points. The Federal government has an obligation to the security of the country.


The argument could be made that the security of the country is increased by increasing the population, exploiting natural resources, and staying the He!! out of a purely political debate about climate.

Are you then disputing the Bill of Rights?
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Re: Trump = Climate Terrorist

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 04 Jan 2017, 18:21:51

Newf, of course you disagree with KJ. You have a brain. :-D
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Re: Trump = Climate Terrorist

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 05 Jan 2017, 06:58:33

dissident wrote: The problem is that the masses are not vigilant. They start to assume things that are no longer true and to believe without question their information sources. The masses are always more than 50% of the oppression problem.


Each and every one of us who understand this has to ask themselves to what degree do they insulate themselves from this truth by the actions and choices they make on a day to day basis.

I think this starts by questioning the value of engaging in the political process with any hope that this engagement will serve to bring about any meaningful change. This applies to almost all the macro topics we discuss here; over population, climate change, resource depletion, political and economic corruption.

Certainly for many of us on this site we have had 10 or 20 or some of us even 40 years revolving around this same truth that the system is dysfunctional. To remain engaged for decades on something that you recognize as dysfunctional in the end raises the question of why you remain engaged? In some hope that meaningful change will happen? I have to ask, are any of us any different then these dumb masses? Someone who voted for trump believing that meaningful change will come to their lives is for me about the same as any of us on this site spending decades discussing peak oil or climate change believing that as a global civilization we will in any meaningful way mitigate these issues.

The cognitive dissonance is that we recognize the macro institutions as dysfunctional and nevertheless spend decades engaged in the process of trying to address systemic problems that are unsolvable. It begs the question of why one dedicates energy and time on the macro level.

Peel back the onion layer by layer until you find the place where your engagement is meaningful. Each layer brings you closer and closer to your family, friends and immediate community. To the garden in your back yard, to the farmers market down the road, to your local community.

I have graduated from the university of idiocracy after decades of thinking that dissecting the problems of our modern civilization held some kind of meaning or hope. It is only down to the immediate family and friends and immediate community around me that I now engage.

The rest is noise, incessant chatter, and frankly, a huge waste of time and energy.
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Re: Trump = Climate Terrorist

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Thu 05 Jan 2017, 08:18:07

Your assessment that the system is dysfunctional is incorrect. The system does exactly what it was designed to do, maintain the Status Quo. Which it does extremely efficiently.

A government of, for, and by the people does not exist. The dissonance is between the stated purpose and mission and the real purpose and mission.

We are a people under occupation by our own bureaucracy.
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Re: Trump = Climate Terrorist

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 05 Jan 2017, 08:37:51

Well, maybe by addressing and highlighting the great dysfunctional aspects of the System or as Cid points out the "real mission" of the System we can get people to focus precisely on their immediate surroundings and neighbors and family to try and improve their mental outlook and be more prepared in general to a transition or different world that is coming one way or another
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