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Today’s Poor Needs More Oil, Natural Gas, And Coal

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Today’s Poor Needs More Oil, Natural Gas, And Coal

Unread postby AdamB » Thu 30 Nov 2017, 23:03:43



Simply put, the world has no greater problem than energy deprivation and poverty. They shorten human lives by decades. I'm going to use this post to put some horrifically sad numbers to you because ending poverty today is our most critical global goal. I've written peer-reviewed journal articles on this stuff and have come to realize that we rich Westeners know almost nothing about how poor the world really is. In short, "climate scientists are everywhere, poverty scientists are nowhere." So, this piece is vital to our energy-environment conversation, which has been decidedly one-sided in environment's favor. This is by no means an exhaustive list, just some facts to arm you for the holiday conversation with your brother-in-law that is sure to focus on protecting the world's unborn great grandkids by limiting energy options for the world's poor dying prematurely today. Remember two things


Today’s Poor Needs More Oil, Natural Gas, And Coal
Peak oil in 2020: And here is why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0
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Re: Today’s Poor Needs More Oil, Natural Gas, And Coal

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 01 Dec 2017, 12:32:47

The argument that this article makes is nothing short of hysterical. Nothing is more important than curing poverty! So lets burn down the planet pretending to do that! We'd be better off handing out a livable wage to everyone who just wants to do what most people (and nearly all millennials) seem to want to do, which is surf on the net looking for cat videos and pretending that thinking big thoughts in a basement apartment and posting them on the net is their special snowflake contribution to the advancement of humanity. And anyone else who wants to get out into the real world, well they can make as much money as the market can reward them with, and have a reasonable fraction of it stolen from their efforts to get the moochers alive.

This way we can at least avoid listening to whatever the ridiculous energy argument of the day might be.
Peak oil in 2020: And here is why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0
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Re: Today’s Poor Needs More Oil, Natural Gas, And Coal

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 01 Dec 2017, 13:42:43

AdamB wrote:The argument that this article makes is nothing short of hysterical. Nothing is more important than curing poverty! So lets burn down the planet pretending to do that! We'd be better off handing out a livable wage to everyone who just wants to do what most people (and nearly all millennials) seem to want to do, which is surf on the net looking for cat videos and pretending that thinking big thoughts in a basement apartment and posting them on the net is their special snowflake contribution to the advancement of humanity. And anyone else who wants to get out into the real world, well they can make as much money as the market can reward them with, and have a reasonable fraction of it stolen from their efforts to get the moochers alive.

This way we can at least avoid listening to whatever the ridiculous energy argument of the day might be.

And as though the efforts to "cure" poverty globally in general, or the US in particular for the past 50 years have been anything but a spectacular failure by any measure aside from spending/redistributing many $trillions of other peoples' money to encourage bad behavior like unsustainable reproduction.

That sort of argument (i.e. the hysterical claim that curing poverty is job one) might win elections for the left, but it sure doesn't solve the real world problem.
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Re: Today’s Poor Needs More Oil, Natural Gas, And Coal

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 01 Dec 2017, 13:50:11

I was reading a NYT article today about a woman who commutes 6 hours a day to her $80,000 govt. job in SF, since she moved to get more affordable housing.

Nothing about how better decisions, like moving away from CA or not working in SF might allow a 15 minute commute, much lower living costs, and an a similar financial position even on a smaller salary. (That wouldn't be "politically correct" to suggest.

And the proposed "fix" from the left wing NYT readers generally was, of course predictable. Magically fix the problem with much higher taxes. As though this woman paying much higher taxes would make her better off. As if the government track record on affordable housing in big cities like SF has ANY credibility re throwing lots of other peoples' money at it is likely to fix it.

The insanity is so widespread, most people are blind to it. Thus, I don't see it being fixed under the current system. Only growing worse as people elect more of the same crowd making false promises.
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Re: Today’s Poor Needs More Oil, Natural Gas, And Coal

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 01 Dec 2017, 14:31:02

Actually, the prescription for such problems in the whole SF Bay Area is the same: Low Income Housing. Everybody who builds housing has to reserve a negotiated number of BMR units (BMR = Below Market Rates), subsidized with tax money. Rampant cheating is going on, people are leasing the BMR units with falsified applications, then subletting via airbnb and similar apps.
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Re: Today’s Poor Needs More Oil, Natural Gas, And Coal

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 01 Dec 2017, 16:06:21

KaiserJeep wrote:Actually, the prescription for such problems in the whole SF Bay Area is the same: Low Income Housing. Everybody who builds housing has to reserve a negotiated number of BMR units (BMR = Below Market Rates), subsidized with tax money. Rampant cheating is going on, people are leasing the BMR units with falsified applications, then subletting via airbnb and similar apps.

With high land values, little land to build on, and an extremely active and vocal populace aggressively fighting (including using lawswuits) attempts to build low income housing, even minimally, good luck with that. It's far easier to SAY "just build a lot of low income housing" than to get it done.

Which is why I suggested moving as one alternative.

With the commute, she could work 2 jobs or 1.5 jobs plus, and be better off timewise and/or financially in a LOT of places. Or work one job, have a lot more time, have a lot lower cost of living, and likely be better off financially net. (This assumes the feds would allow her to retire at 62. If not, she's locked in, but complaining about it doesn't fix it).

This reminds me of how so many NYCers are so smug about how "great" NYC is. And yet the NYT spends a ton of time bellyaching about the terrible subway system and the corrupt government that causes it, the horrendous rents for both housing and business, etc.

Yeah. It's so "great" I wouldn't go near the place, even for a vacation. :roll:

But then again, I'm a "deplorable" since I live in a red state, so my observations clearly don't count.
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Re: Today’s Poor Needs More Oil, Natural Gas, And Coal

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 01 Dec 2017, 16:48:29

Don't forget that this SF Bay Area is one of few places in the USA where we have a vibrant economy, a labor shortage, and starting salaries for college graduates in six figures. That's just not true in most places. So YES the cost of living is high, which is why house sharing is common. If you insist on a private residence, particularly a single family dwelling, and you only have one income, it's hard to pay rent or mortgage.
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Re: Today’s Poor Needs More Oil, Natural Gas, And Coal

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 01 Dec 2017, 17:28:05

KaiserJeep wrote:Don't forget that this SF Bay Area is one of few places in the USA where we have a vibrant economy, a labor shortage, and starting salaries for college graduates in six figures. That's just not true in most places. So YES the cost of living is high

But that is okay, because the rest of the US subsidizes our outrageous housing valuations with its purchases of our high tech, agricultural products . . . especially nuts, fruits seed and marijuana. Which is a major export crop, especially to Cog's sad home town :cry: 8)
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Re: Today’s Poor Needs More Oil, Natural Gas, And Coal

Unread postby ralfy » Fri 01 Dec 2017, 18:20:06

The irony is that it's based on a capitalist argument. That's because free market capitalism requires continuous growth, and that can only be achieved through a steady growth in population (which allows for expanding consumer markets), the reduction of poverty (which allows for more spending, and in turn leads to more profits for businesses), resources that are cheap (because they are abundant thanks to the magic of technology), and energy that is clean (also made possible through the magic of technology, and which will also solve problems involving pollution and global warming).

The catch is that reduction of poverty requires more basic needs made available to the same global population, which is essentially a consumer population for businesses that compete with each other and want to maximize profits. And those basic needs require more oil, natural gas, and coal. But all of these resources experience diminishing returns as seen in phenomena such as peak oil.

The second catch is that to ensure continuous growth (and more profits for businesses) the same global population has to go beyond basic needs. But that means ecological footprints that exceed biocapacity on a significant scale.

Given that, there is no "fix" to this issue, as the effects of limits to growth is inevitable.
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