NEW! Members Only Forums!

Access more articles, news & discussion by becoming a PeakOil.com Member.
Register Today...
It's FREE!


Login



Peak Oil is You


Donate Bitcoins :-)


The Worlds Four Possible Futures...

If you are through speculating, this is the place to discuss actions you are taking.

Re: The Worlds Four Possible Futures...

Unread postby Loki » Tue 17 Jan 2012, 19:04:52

radon wrote:Feudalism has also some other very peculiar characteristics, like serfdom, vassal structure, states fragmentation. Difficult to imagine the contemporary 80%s being limited in their freedom of movement by their (legal) serfdom dependency towards their masters, even in the post-crash scenario.

I agree feudalism is not the right term for what we face here in the US. I think Third Worldism might be better, and all the corruption, gross inequalities, poverty, and squalor that entails. We're more than halfway there already :lol:

It'll take a couple centuries for anything like feudalism to re-develop, though I suppose it's not out of the question.
A garden will make your rations go further.
User avatar
Loki
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 2338
Joined: Sat 08 Apr 2006, 02:00:00
Location: Oregon

Re: The Worlds Four Possible Futures...

Unread postby rangerone314 » Tue 17 Jan 2012, 19:23:58

Cog wrote:I see no blame was ascribed to the millions of idiots who bought more house than they could afford.

Typical progressive tripe.

Yeah, its not the drunk bus driver responsible for the bus wreck and all the collateral damage. Its all the fools who bought bus tickets because they thought riding the bus was safe.

Fortunately I never bought into their con job.
Last edited by rangerone314 on Tue 17 Jan 2012, 19:32:31, edited 1 time in total.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
User avatar
rangerone314
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 4047
Joined: Wed 03 Dec 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Maryland

Re: The Worlds Four Possible Futures...

Unread postby rangerone314 » Tue 17 Jan 2012, 19:30:45

Cog wrote:What do you intend to do with their wealth? Burn it? Distribute to those who have not earned it? What is your game plan here if any?

I'm sure I'll be fascinated by your reply on how the rich are such a problem to you.

I already told how they are such a problem. I gave more than one example.

Of course I could also add investing in commodities driving up the price of energy for transportation and heat in the winter, for putting food on the table, for driving to work. (as opposed to "earning" it through capital gains and paying only 15% tax on it)

How about put it into a national trust only to be spent when their speculative binges drive the country into a recession/depression? Burning it is one idea. I'm not fond of re-distributing it... but you could use it to ameliorate price differences caused by tariffs (that we should place) on foreign goods that they produce overseas to the detriment of American workers.

How about taking that rich money and using it to pay the difference between a new minimum wage of 50 cents per hour and what the poor earn now? Pull in the jobs from overseas and the poor have more money to spend and the rich would probably make up the money anyway (from a stronger & healthier economy).

I'm not a progressive or a liberal and I don't buy into their ideological tripe, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the system is f**ked up and needs something a little more intelligent than the usual mind-ending liberal tripe or the conservative do-nothing approach.

Conservatives twiddle their thumbs while a house burns down while liberals try to put the fire out with gasoline. Typical thought-ending ideologies.
Last edited by rangerone314 on Tue 17 Jan 2012, 20:05:35, edited 4 times in total.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
User avatar
rangerone314
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 4047
Joined: Wed 03 Dec 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Maryland

Re: The Worlds Four Possible Futures...

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Tue 17 Jan 2012, 19:35:20

Loki wrote:It'll take a couple centuries for anything like feudalism to re-develop, though I suppose it's not out of the question.


Properly and respectfully put I think. Compared to what is coming next feudalism could be relatively paradisical. At least in Feudalism your leaders are right there in front of you, with you. When they deserve to be strung up and replaced it can happen in short order. It is the most natural human system of organisation. Compared to happy motoring it's pretty miserable by some folk's opinion. Been around a lot longer and will re-emerge as sure as the sun coming up tomorrow morning.
SeaGypsy
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 4806
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 03:00:00

Re: The Worlds Four Possible Futures...

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 17 Jan 2012, 19:44:17

Cog wrote:Although analogies are suspect lets try one.

Progressives believe that there is one pie and it never gets larger. In their world there is a 5 inch diameter pie and the 10% eat half of the pie and are full while the 90% eat their pie and are still hungry.

The reality is the diameter of the pie gets larger each and every year. So while the 10% still take their half of the pie, the bottom 90% get more pie to eat in a quantitative sense.
Cog, do you really believe that? I mean really?

You mustn't have heard of peak oil. :lol:
Yikes!
pstarr
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 14868
Joined: Mon 27 Sep 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain

Re: The Worlds Four Possible Futures...

Unread postby AgentR11 » Tue 17 Jan 2012, 20:00:00

pstarr wrote:
Cog wrote:The reality is the diameter of the pie gets larger each and every year. So while the 10% still take their half of the pie, the bottom 90% get more pie to eat in a quantitative sense.
Cog, do you really believe that? I mean really?
You mustn't have heard of peak oil. :lol:


That's kinda the rub, is this transition period where we're in an economic system that wants the pie to get bigger each year; but we have resource constraints that are starting to say, "no mo pie". Current solution seems to be working ok, where we value the pie numerically higher and higher each year, even though the pie didn't get any bigger. Considering that the numbers only need be 2-3% positive to continue to work; the system can continue to do this for a very long time; basically so long as it remains possible to get sufficient grain into the hands of the poor.

Its flaw though, is again this income&wealth degradation for the lower 80%; they aren't gaining numerically, and the price of their essentials is creeping up. I suppose there's no fundamental law that prohibits the issuing of EBT cards to fully employed people all the way up to the 70th percentile, but it sure would be an obnoxious turn of events. "Oh look, me and my wife work full time jobs... and we need to be on Food Stamps to avoid starvation!" Odd.
Yes we are, as we are,
And so shall we remain,
Until the end.
User avatar
AgentR11
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 2916
Joined: Tue 22 Mar 2011, 08:15:51
Location: East Texas

Re: The Worlds Four Possible Futures...

Unread postby radon » Tue 17 Jan 2012, 20:54:37

Loki wrote:It'll take a couple centuries for anything like feudalism to re-develop, though I suppose it's not out of the question.


Still, my guess that it is not very likely. Regress has not been typical in the history. Medieval Europe did not regress to the ancient Roman/Greek system. Whether due to the introduction of monotheism, or introduction of Arabic digits instead of awkward Roman ones, or other things mostly called progress. And despite the absence of the fossil fuel energy intake at that time.

A fundamental difference between the pre-crash and post-crash world is the relative importance of the financial assets vs tangible ones. Post-crash the financial assets will decline in their significance, maybe even totally evaporate. Tangibles, especially land, will become the key assets, as they used to be at the time of feudalism and prior to that.

The ascendance of the financial assets has coincided with the development of the modern (fossil) energy generation techniques, unsurprisingly. With that development the relative power and wealth of the military/security class has been declining, as the muscles/military skill were being substituted by automated/gas-electricity-fueled modern military/security machinery.

At the same time, the relative power/wealth of "intellectuals", like bankers, scientists, lawyers, doctors, musicians, heirs etc. has grown, as they were now able to accumulate financial assets that could be easily converted to tangibles and back, meaning that their protection required far less raw security/military power.

What happened was that the financial assets enabled segregation of the provision of the physical security of the asset holder and provision of his/her financial security. The former was still provided by the security/military men, while the latter by the lawyers and alike. This greatly enhanced the overall security of the asset holder, as the security men would now need to conspire with the lawyers in order to grab the wealth from the asset holder. By contrast, in the feudal times, in the absence of the financial assets, both financial and physical security of the asset holder was in the hands of his(her) security guards because the assets were tangibles (land) that the guards were well aware off - an position vulnerable to abuse by the guards. This is why the military commander and the feudal lord was normally the same person who guarded himself.

The advent of the financial assets enabled the asset holder to anonymize his wealth and hide it from the sight of the guards (and the laymen), so that the latter no longer knew what to grab.

This process changed the composition of aristocracy, with the emphasis shifting from military men to the "intellectuals".

As the things develop post-crash, the opposite process will take place. The financials will decline in significance, the tangibles will take hold, and the wealthy will have to openly declare themselves as the holders of these tangible assets (land), as they will be physically unable to hide them. At the same time, for the reasons described above, the relative power of the military men will be growing, while the security of the "intellectual" aristocracy will be weakening.

In these circumstances the existing aristocracy of "intellectuals" has no other choice than seek to legitimize (sanctify) their asset holdings in order to preserve them. The best, and may be the only way, to achieve it is to try to preserve the existing system, as its duration itself provides legitimacy to whatever arrangement is already in place, simply by means of established customs and traditions.

So, the democracy in a democratic country is likely to demonstrate resilience, as both the aristocracy and the 80%s will be interested in its continuance. Even if there is a move towards plutocracy, the reverse will likely take place shortly as the aristocracy will feel endangered by the security/military class (19%) and seek an alliance with the 80%s.

Similarly, a non-democratic country will likely seek to preserve its existing system, whatever it is, for the same reasons.
radon
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 630
Joined: Fri 05 Nov 2010, 01:50:28

Re: The Worlds Four Possible Futures...

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Tue 17 Jan 2012, 21:12:58

I don't see the argument. Loki's 200 years is plenty enough.
SeaGypsy
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 4806
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 03:00:00

Re: The Worlds Four Possible Futures...

Unread postby The Practician » Tue 17 Jan 2012, 23:59:41

I think This article by Mark Ames from The Exiled might shed a little light on at least one faction of the lower top 20% and their motives for supporting the top 1% (or whatever) in spite of their supposed "class interests"

http://exiledonline.com/we-the-spiteful/
The Practician
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 270
Joined: Wed 20 Jul 2011, 21:08:02

Re: The Worlds Four Possible Futures...

Unread postby Cog » Wed 18 Jan 2012, 00:37:04

pstarr wrote:
Cog wrote:Although analogies are suspect lets try one.

Progressives believe that there is one pie and it never gets larger. In their world there is a 5 inch diameter pie and the 10% eat half of the pie and are full while the 90% eat their pie and are still hungry.

The reality is the diameter of the pie gets larger each and every year. So while the 10% still take their half of the pie, the bottom 90% get more pie to eat in a quantitative sense.
Cog, do you really believe that? I mean really?

You mustn't have heard of peak oil. :lol:


I'm very much aware that peak oil will result in pie shrinkage. Probably soon. That is why its better to be in percentage that gets the larger slice.
User avatar
Cog
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 2682
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: Metro-East Illinois

Re: The Worlds Four Possible Futures...

Unread postby rangerone314 » Wed 18 Jan 2012, 01:06:01

Cog wrote:
pstarr wrote:
Cog wrote:Although analogies are suspect lets try one.

Progressives believe that there is one pie and it never gets larger. In their world there is a 5 inch diameter pie and the 10% eat half of the pie and are full while the 90% eat their pie and are still hungry.

The reality is the diameter of the pie gets larger each and every year. So while the 10% still take their half of the pie, the bottom 90% get more pie to eat in a quantitative sense.
Cog, do you really believe that? I mean really?

You mustn't have heard of peak oil. :lol:


I'm very much aware that peak oil will result in pie shrinkage. Probably soon. That is why its better to be in percentage that gets the larger slice.

And then there are those, who when denied a slice, will be content to watch the world burn, and nobody gets a slice.
An ideology is by definition not a search for TRUTH-but a search for PROOF that its point of view is right

Equals barter and negotiate-people with power just take

You cant defend freedom by eliminating it-unknown

Our elected reps should wear sponsor patches on their suits so we know who they represent-like Nascar-Roy
User avatar
rangerone314
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 4047
Joined: Wed 03 Dec 2008, 03:00:00
Location: Maryland

Re: The Worlds Four Possible Futures...

Unread postby Cog » Wed 18 Jan 2012, 01:54:06

Some will have to be content with gruel while others enjoy their pie.
User avatar
Cog
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 2682
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: Metro-East Illinois

Re: The Worlds Four Possible Futures...

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 18 Jan 2012, 02:40:10

Cog wrote:Some will have to be content with gruel while others enjoy their pie.

you the man cog. huh
Yikes!
pstarr
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 14868
Joined: Mon 27 Sep 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain

Re: The Worlds Four Possible Futures...

Unread postby radon » Wed 18 Jan 2012, 04:39:41

SeaGypsy wrote:I don't see the argument. Loki's 200 years is plenty enough.


Another way to look at it: the entropy accumulated in the system in 200 years time will be greater than it was 500 years ago (though I dislike this argument). And so will the accumulated knowledge. Both will hinder any regress to a pre-existing state of things.
radon
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 630
Joined: Fri 05 Nov 2010, 01:50:28

Re: The Worlds Four Possible Futures...

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Wed 18 Jan 2012, 05:13:40

radon wrote: So the princes (1%) will have to somehow carefully balance the 80% against the 19% in order to preserve their status. To these ends, they will inevitably have to forego some of their wealth (land) in favor of the 80%s.

Actual *princes* would constitute ca 0.001 - 0.01%.
But lets talk about 1% of those best off.
They will rather share with 19% of followers up and marginalize 80%.
At the end part of this 80% will end up as a low wage workers serving resource owners and viable businesses and remaining bit will turn into *redundant urban population* with a very bleak prospects indeed.
Those will be *contained* in their towns...

Feudalism has also some other very peculiar characteristics, like serfdom, vassal structure, states fragmentation. Difficult to imagine the contemporary 80%s being limited in their freedom of movement by their (legal) serfdom dependency towards their masters, even in the post-crash scenario.

American legislation is gradually transformed towards a system which would allow for that and hardly anyone complains...
These days American citizens are willing to sell *freedom* for *safety*...
Authorities are not facing *any* meaningful challenge on this front.

And of course on the way to serfdom there will be a nice excuse:
First lets reintroduce a debt bondage (and 70-80% of American population is immediately on hook).
Then serfdom (only small proportion of these facing debt bondage would ever wiggle out of their miserable situation and other would be turned into serfs as time pass).

Loki wrote:It'll take a couple centuries for anything like feudalism to re-develop, though I suppose it's not out of the question.

One century, two at most...
Feudalism is a naturally stable situation when most of wealth is delivered from control of land and resources within said land (like water rights).
So collapse of industrial behemoth will lead to feudal world.
Initial stages of forming feudal world are going to be very ferocious in nature.
You may well witness these stages in your life.
Think Pickens and his accumulation of land and water rights for a foretaste...
Later system will become to be a bit more humane.
Last edited by EnergyUnlimited on Wed 18 Jan 2012, 05:24:22, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
EnergyUnlimited
Master
Master
 
Posts: 5087
Joined: Mon 15 May 2006, 02:00:00

Re: The Worlds Four Possible Futures...

Unread postby radon » Wed 18 Jan 2012, 05:20:34

EnergyUnlimited wrote:Then serfdom (only small proportion of these facing debt bondage would ever wiggle out of their miserable situation and other would be turned into serfs as time pass).


For starters, that would require repeal of the Constitution. But even if this is the case, how will you be able to retain the "serfs"? They will simply "emigrate" to Canada, or tell you to mind your business.
radon
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 630
Joined: Fri 05 Nov 2010, 01:50:28

Re: The Worlds Four Possible Futures...

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Wed 18 Jan 2012, 05:33:36

radon wrote:
EnergyUnlimited wrote:Then serfdom (only small proportion of these facing debt bondage would ever wiggle out of their miserable situation and other would be turned into serfs as time pass).


For starters, that would require repeal of the Constitution. But even if this is the case, how will you be able to retain the "serfs"? They will simply "emigrate" to Canada, or tell you to mind your business.

!. American Constitution is already a dead document.
Congress have passed certain laws declaring US a war zone and basic constitutional rights are now all but dead.
You can be detained indefinitely without a right to a court hearing.

2. As if Canada would like to be a refuge for serfs...
Perhaps some of them would get a right to stay, if they wished to be serfs there...
OK, Canada may not endorse *serfdom* as such but *illegal aliens* would not enjoy any protection afforded to *rightful Canadians*...
Also once refugees are becoming to be a problem for Canadian stability, they may well be deported back to their lords in US.
Very much what China does to North Korean refugees (albeit Chinese authorities are usually but not always retaining women...).

3. Lords of the past had some ways to deal with those who were telling them "to mind your business".
Future won't be different.
User avatar
EnergyUnlimited
Master
Master
 
Posts: 5087
Joined: Mon 15 May 2006, 02:00:00

Re: The Worlds Four Possible Futures...

Unread postby Pops » Wed 18 Jan 2012, 08:39:30

Loki wrote:
Agent wrote:I really don't get this envy thing


“The bitter politics of envy.” Now that right there was the line that made me loathe Mitt Romney.

Yeah, I think that will haunt him because it isn't envy at all. American's think people deserve what they achieve, that is the American Dream. But the key to that dream is believing anyone can be a 10%er and that isn't possible if the game is blatantly rigged. Just an example I saw this am:

Global audit and consulting firm Ernst & Young has named Mark Weinberger, a longtime Washington insider, as its next chairman and chief executive, a signal that connections in the U.S. capital may be growing in importance to a profession facing greater scrutiny.


Average wage earners are beginning to understand the line between the regulators and the regulated has disappeared and that they are on their own. This isn't the elitist left I'm talking about, it's blue collar, high school dropouts that are most effected by this recession. They were the Wobblies of the last century. Once they get understand that commie ≠ atheist they could be a huge problem for the status quo.
“Quite simply, we are looking at the highest average price since the age of oil began.”
-- Daniel Yergin

The only substitute for cheap energy is expensive energy. -- Me
Make a plan and work it. -- Me again
¡Where the heck are the pitchforks! www.MoveToAmend.org
User avatar
Pops
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 11973
Joined: Sat 03 Apr 2004, 03:00:00
Location: My Grandkids' Farm

Re: The Worlds Four Possible Futures...

Unread postby Revi » Wed 18 Jan 2012, 09:33:01

I think most people are in space, and can't figure out what's going on at all. They won't wake up until it's too late. The Republocrats have them in a trance. It's an empire of illusion.

Image
Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.
User avatar
Revi
Master
Master
 
Posts: 5632
Joined: Mon 25 Apr 2005, 02:00:00
Location: Maine

Re: The Worlds Four Possible Futures...

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Wed 18 Jan 2012, 09:41:01

Pops wrote:American's think people deserve what they achieve, that is the American Dream.

So what do you think about those who wish to sell freedom for safety?

But the key to that dream is believing anyone can be a 10%er and that isn't possible if the game is blatantly rigged.

For those who start without much capital this game was always rigged as per my life experience and beliefs based on observation of surrounding world.
That did not stop me from succeeding, though.

If you want to get to top 5% you have to be creative and happy to play rigged games... and once you are playing rigged game fell no restrain to rig it further to your own advantage...

To get to top 1% you need to be well connected, or of good pedigree or *very* lucky, or just very good in some recognizable sport.
It is only top 0.001%, eg higher aristocracy, where the gates are firmly shut in front of you albeit you can still marry your way through if lucky enough.
Schwarzenegger did it, so why you should fail? :-D

Average wage earners are beginning to understand the line between the regulators and the regulated has disappeared and that they are on their own.

But as long as they are doing what fits, regardless of societal expectations, there is still a good chance of success...

Once they get understand that commie ≠ atheist they could be a huge problem for the status quo.

Commie worlds still have their own aristocracies, far more powerful than corrupt US or Third World nations do.
Inequalities in commie world are far greater than in "rotten" capitalist systems.
I have seen it first hand in relatively mild form (in Poland which was a commie country but not a hardline one).
Read my post about North Korea v. US on the previous page for more details.

But believe me that commie systems also have power holding aristocracy (say < 0.1%), wealthy and influential class (20%) and worker-drones (rest).
Composition of wealthy and influential class is different than on the West (mid rank party officials, mid rank members of security and military, directors of non-critical state companies etc) but such class is still there regardless.

Base on my observations commie systems (those real, not an imaginary ones advocated by members like Americandream) are *more* feudal in nature than capitalist counterparts.
At the extreme we have hereditary monarchies there (North Korea).
User avatar
EnergyUnlimited
Master
Master
 
Posts: 5087
Joined: Mon 15 May 2006, 02:00:00

PreviousNext

Return to Planning For The Future

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests