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The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 31 Oct 2017, 21:15:39

Isn't that kind of what Dark Mountain is? It's still a tribe, of sorts, though. I don't think you can get away from being part of a group, even if it's a dysfunctional one characterized by internal bickering like this.

http://dark-mountain.net/

BTW, as far as the "standing down" aspect goes, I just found out that Bill McKibben has just finished his first novel. I wonder whether that signals his own process of disengaging from activism and retreating to his imagination? Not that different from Kunstler and Greer, is it?

https://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/201 ... story.html

I just don't know how many outspoken activists fighting the good fight are really left at this point. Gore's still out there but nobody listens to him. James Hansen is seen as even more of an alarmist.

There's really no single figure left with any sort of pull or sway. I guess the only one I can point to would be Elon Musk, and it's kinda sad that it has to come from an industrialist.

I'm just wondering whether this signals a collective sense of futility among those who were once really active leading up to "Nopenhagen" and the public's shift from environmental to short-term economic concerns.

BOLD PREDICTIONS
-Billions are on the verge of starvation as the lockdown continues. (yoshua, 5/20/20)

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 31 Oct 2017, 21:33:06

asg70 wrote:I'm just wondering whether this signals a collective sense of futility among those who were once really active leading up to "Nopenhagen" and the public's shift from environmental to short-term economic concerns.

'
We get quite a few introverted nerdy entomologists, botanists, herpetologists, various ecologists, bird watchers, bug collectors. Some of them associated with institutes, others private amateur naturalists. Many share this common personality trait of being "outsiders" having chosen to devote their time, energy and money in the pursuit of rare insects, collections, bird lists, doing taxonomy on micro moths or micro orchids, part of a sub culture of folks whose common passion is the natural world and teasing out the taxonomy of the known and still not yet described flora and fauna. They share social media sites and web portals dedicated to taxonomy. They sometimes travel in groups. They know enough about ecology to recognize and talk about the plunder around the planet and disappearance of natural ecosystems and the rise in extinctions. Many of these guys and a few gals actually have mentioned how they feel they are racing against time to describe the still unknown before it goes extinct. That there is some record before this or that beetle or moth falls into the permanent anonymity of extinction. that the type specimen can be given a name, pinned and cataloged and known right before it disappears.

The interesting thing about many of these nerdy scientific types is that they are not activists. Many are down right apolitical. They retreated decades ago into their nerdy worlds of obscure taxonomy.

These are not the 95% nor are they the parasites. They are non participants and have aligned themselves with the natural world and you wont find these folks in malls or classic consumption venues except for buying butterfly nets and binoculars. They do fly in airplanes.

They do buy cyanide and methyl acetate for their killing jars. They do buy mist nets to band birds. But otherwise they are hardly consumers.

Political activism around peak oil, climate change, and all the other social and environmental problems is a dead end alley that leads to severe depression. Folks who follow this route end up far too engaged with the dysfunctional.

Better to be a withdrawn nerd not participating and escaping into the natural world. I am more aligned with this sub culture than any form of political activism which is a guaranteed downer.

Ever look deep into Amy Goodman's face? It isn't a happy one.

James Howard Kunstler? Pretty big sourpuss

Ruppert? Killed himself

IT is dangerous to over identify with the dysfunctional. It is a losers game.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 31 Oct 2017, 21:43:35

SeaGypsy wrote:Ibon, The numbers are speculative, but I guess fair enough.

Of many friends & associates here in Melbourne, the vast majority would jump in & buy the stupid house (buy into the giant Ponzi scheme). They think I'm eccentric to say the least. I think the whole game is disgusting & will forgo my mother's "gift".


I guess 4% is generous!
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 01 Nov 2017, 20:34:26

Tanada/Sea/et al. Re: Are “Is avoiding responsibility a dark emotion?”

First.... what the hell is the definition of a Dark Emotion?

Second....it could probably be argued either way. Let me try this one.... Taking responsibility is the Dark Emotion, just backwards.

I agree that most folks, for whatever reason, avoid taking responsibility. That probably extends to all of us here to a greater or lesser extent. We like to think we take responsibility but we don’t in most things. Most decisions are just knee jerk or programmed reactions we don’t even think about. While I think they go too far some researchers say we have NO,ZERO free will, which would imply no responsibility.

The folks who DO take responsibility, or just take charge, are somehow driven; by lust for power or money, or salvation, or a sense of guilt, or whatever. It’s hard for me to see them as predominantly altruistic, they want something out of the deal.

I’m probably exposing too much of my self struggle here for I’m a “take charge” kinda person. You want an answer? No problem, 78. If 78 doesn’t work as an answer then you need to pay me more for a better answer. And, if paid enough (either in cash or something else I desire) I’ll work my toosh off to get the best possible answer.

Sometime I’ll give an answer for free, or against my best immediate interest because I want to establish myself as an expert or otherwise feel good about myself. My boss asked me take some time, a couple of days, to familiarize myself with a project they were considering pursuing. A half hour latter I told him he/the decision makers within the company were completely nuts! A million bucks of proposal money latter they withdrew. Who woulda thunk it? But “I told ya so!” I took personal responsibility to advise my bosses they were knuckle heads, out of their league. I flatter myself by saying “I had a responsibility to the company to tell them the truth.”

Reality? Stroked my ego big time, that was my payoff.

Numerous other examples that routinely got me in trouble. I could NOT tow the line, I stick my thick neck out and most often be right. But I never learned I never got credit for it. THEY didn’t want me to be right, they wanted me to tell them how right they were. My personal responsibility was to tell the truth.

So that’s my view, taking responsibility, being personally responsible MAY be a symptom of a Dark Emotion.

Of course without it, without someone to stand up and lead, we would still be roaming savanahs. So there you have it, humanity is driven by dark emotions.

(Rant off, probably pure baloney but it’s my mood of the moment)
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 09:18:27

Since hours ago & the hiving off Seasteading topic, something else clicked for me, related to Ghung's safety related questions. I might phrase it as a question:

Fear, being the most obvious dark emotion, driving insecurity, giving rise to the core disease of humanity- debt driven housing & subsequent slavery to debt- is that wisdom? Or something else?

I'm seeing insecurity based debt slavery as the primary driver for the disease humanity is both suffering from & has become.

There are more than one ways to not go there. The most obvious is teaming up. Certain migrant groups went this direction, 8+ people in a small rented apartment worked, saved, pooled money, bought commercial territory, self employed, continued to work & pool & in the time an average nuclear family takes to pay out a mortgage, became substantially wealthy.

The debt economy enables the "everyman's castle" scenario. With all the attendant baggage. The majority want their nuclear family, their 'castle', & par for the course is half your working life paying off debt, often 3+ times the original loan amount.

How different would things be if teaming up on a more moderate scale, frugality & trust, long term planning for financial independence were the norm? (As they are in some cultures).
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 09:47:44

The ownership of a house and the paying off of a mortgage was always one definition of the American Dream for the Middle Class. It still exists, I and two of my five siblings are free of obligations to the bank and even financially comfortable. The other two are not, one married a woman who loves horses and owns a farm (a marginal business proposition), the other is a substance abusing bum.

You have to act responsibly for decades to acheive financial stability and freedom from the bank. Screw up just once, buy the wrong house, or the right house in the wrong place, marry the wrong person, or simply spend too much of your earnings on toys, and you will then be one of the seniors living from one pension check to the next.

Nobody ever said that this was easy. But what we face is easier than the Great Depression or WW2, which is what our grandparents and parents had to overcome to prosper. The USA has 13,600,000 people with a net worth of $1,000,000 or more, which is 41% of the millionaires in the whole world, and more than the next eight countries combined. If you are reaching retirement age in this country and are not well off, then YES, you screwed up, and badly.

You are free to think dark emotions about your own shortcomings, or "bad luck" if that is your excuse. But most people end up screwing themselves.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 10:04:48

KaiserJeep wrote:You are free to think dark emotions about your own shortcomings, or "bad luck" if that is your excuse. But most people end up screwing themselves.

'You are tapping into the same theme I just addressed as well over on the 35 hour work week thread.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 10:22:01

KJ thinks it's all cool, coz him & his are rich. I think the system is a great big scam, doesn't mean I'm a victim of it. I married to have children, who are both healthy, brilliant & beautiful. I have no confidence in the long term stability of the system. I've also no motivation to achieve someone else' idea of success, i have my own & am quite happy. (I'm yet to browse the 35 hour week thread).
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 11:24:16

SeaGypsy wrote:KJ thinks it's all cool, coz him & his are rich. I think the system is a great big scam, doesn't mean I'm a victim of it. I married to have children, who are both healthy, brilliant & beautiful. I have no confidence in the long term stability of the system. I've also no motivation to achieve someone else' idea of success, i have my own & am quite happy. (I'm yet to browse the 35 hour week thread).


There are a variety of strategies to gain independence. KJ mentions the pathway of working within the matrix, saving, being frugal, paying off your debts, working hard. This is honorable in so far as applies to ones personal integrity and fore sight in many cases. This does not however mean that those who have not achieved this necessarily lacked these hard working qualities and fore sight. This is the binary thinking mistake we often see. There are many who do not achieve financial independence because for many reasons the cards were stacked against them, whether for family reasons or bad luck or cultural legacies like racism etc.

Or let's take the current crop of millennials who are emerging as adults in an economic environment where employment and wage opportunities are not going to float as many hard working folks up to this kind of retirement status regardless of your personal integrity.

So then what? I look my two adult daughters. They are not willing, interested or focused on the established career pathways in any remote attempt to try to follow the path KJ took or what I took for that matter, paying my dues to the man and the matrix, being in the world of commerce for a couple of decades and taking those stored nuts and buying a cloud forest in Panama. That is not in the cards for either of my daughters or for many individuals with high work ethics and loads of integrity.

That is actually though exactly at that meeting point where there exists a tension out of which novel new arrangements can occur. Those who are personally weak but kind of losers are just going to follow the path of least resistance and end up wage slaves, impoverished and miserable.

But there will be emerging a crop of high integrity individuals butting up against a macro economic system weakened to the point where the cost benefit ratio of paying your dues to the man and the matrix will not be worth it as it was for KJ and me for example. That is where you then take an interesting percentage of the population, switched on, aware, smart and hard working but who refuse to play along. Who then look for other arrangements.

That is the edge where change happens.

KJ's post is an old baby boomers story, mine is similar. It is only partially relevant. The hard work part, the frugality part, the personal integrity part is all good and well. But the external environment is not the same.

A little bit of darwinian survival of the fittest is being introduced into our culture at large. This has been lacking. An opportunity for many to grow a spine. Many will not be up to the task. Others will.

As a father two millennials my advice is to go travelling, go experience many jobs, get street smart, abandon higher education and attempting to enter into a corporate world increasingly lacking real opportunities of wealth and creativity. It isn't worth it for most like it used to be. I was a beneficiary of a better economic time. So was KJ. The situation has changed and trying to chase dwindling crumbs by climbing up the corporate ladder is not only a dead end but not very fun anymore. I have advised my daughters against this.

Just some rambling thoughts here.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 11:37:08

A friend of mine, very poor financially, life long Krishna devotee, says "Some people build their wealth & keep it inside." He's nearly 70, gives away any money which comes his way, is one of those people who is known & loved by hundreds if not thousands of people- but wouldn't have a clue how to turn on a computer, let alone start a Facebook account.

I was just reading a story about a 65 year old taxi owner driver, bankrupted by legalisation of Uber. In no way her fault, she'd done everything right according to KJ, got totally screwed anyway.

The world is not fair, that is an illusion.
But you can't miss what you never wanted.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby Cog » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 11:43:44

Climbing the corporate ladder was never fun, it was hard work. You can stop at any level along the way if you wish. Depends on what you want your future to look like. I analyzed what it would take to run a department in a engineering/survey company and knew the time commitment involved and stopped a level down from all that. To each his own and some people are perfectly happy at living paycheck to paycheck. I was not but also didn't want to live the job 24/7 as owners and department heads do either.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 11:51:16

Yes, the new generations face different challenges. Being 66 my path went substantially like KJ and Ibon. But I don’t see my kids doing this.

It’s toughest for my 35 yo. He never wanted fame or fortune but a stable family dwelling. Smart but hates school he got a prison guard job. Safe and secure, won’t get rich but is making payments. He is vulnerable because of lack of flexibility. And I’ve got no good advice for him.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 11:55:09

Hey, in my own defense I opened my message above with "The ownership of a house and the paying off of a mortgage was always one definition of the American Dream for the Middle Class." I never said it was the only way.

But advising most of the next generation to not get educated, not to pursue a regular job, and not to buy property is both irresponsible and downright wrong. There were and are exceptional people who find wealth by non-conventional paths, but having most of the millennials chasing dreams when they themselves are more average than exceptional is doing them a disservice.

I mean, do you think today's mild economic malaise is in any way comparable to the Great Depression of the late 1920's? Do you think that Kim Jong-un and Vladimir Putin compare to Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, or Hideki Tojo?

America is still the land of opportunity, compared to anywhere else. If your offspring are not extraordinary people who can found a business and work hard enough and long enough to make it a success, then the best thing that you can do for them is to advise them to be a wage slave for 3-4 decades. That is still the road to success for average people, who are not super-entrepreneurs.

That never did mean that most people should graduate from a college or university, and it does not mean that now. There is always room for hardworking blue collar people, and today is no different.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 11:57:27

Cog,

My Wife worked at a job she loved, got paid squat.

I worked a job I disliked, well I hated trains but the engineering was fun. Management was not.

My last job was best, sort of like an in-house consultant/trouble shooter/dike plug. Part time, no direct reports. I had department heads in my companie and other companies who I had mentored so I had all kinds of work security.

It was my best, most well compensated job ever. I still hated it. Knew it was time to get out.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby Cog » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 12:21:51

We all end up in a box in the ground or a crematorium container at the end.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby evilgenius » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 12:53:48

I think a lot of life is about luck. Luck here being something like how the improbable can happen, or how the most likely thing doesn't come about. You can work really hard and still have bad luck. You can work less hard and have good luck. You can work like an average person and, if you have bland luck, do pretty well.

Your chances are always better if you fall into a group. If the members of the group don't eat each other (doesn't need a hierarchy), then the whole group tends to do better. Along with luck, as a big determiner of where people wind up, comes privilege. Whether it is how people who see others a certain way all choose to tailgate in an effort to get to appointments faster, or how men belittle women who try to engage in a 'man's game' privilege works for people because it uses the lever of the group. You don't have to choose to be in a privileged group. You don't even have to actively participate as a member to benefit.

The thing that a person can do that seems to make a difference is keep their word. I don't mean swear by things, so that you appeal to a group, but that your 'yes' means yes and your 'no' means no. If you do that, then more often you will realize that you are your own creation, and if you are poor you wanted it that way. Maybe the compromises you made in life were really worth it, even though you wound up poor. If not, and you want a different life, then you stand a better chance of admitting to yourself what it will take to get it as well.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 13:40:43

I think over the 3-4 decades of a typical working career, the luck evens out. Some people will be a little more fortunate at the end of that period, and some people a little less fortunate.

As for being a member of a group - I was a member of a series of work groups, a means of advancing my career. Then I recreated with yet another group, first hikers, then Jeep owners.

I have a lot of satisfaction, but most of it comes from having a kid who shares my work ethic, and who produced two amazing grandchildren.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 16:12:39

Actually there is some research to support the idea some folks are just lucky. Well, in fact they are more curious and out going and optimistic so keep poking looks by for opportunities, they are constantly on the lookout,
A heads up attitude.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby GHung » Thu 02 Nov 2017, 16:38:52

A lot of talk about hard work (which I think is a bit overrated), education (what kind??), luck (luck of the draw?). Very little about being tested. Most folks I know never have (not really). They've never not known where their next meal is coming from, never lived in a true deficit, never walked the walk of people that have, never not known where their next bed will be in any real sense, never had to live with extreme physical insecurity, never had who they are, and what they believe, challenged in life-reforming ways. No real modern-day rites of passage or formative period in their lives to transition to adulthood. We don't even prepare our children for such things.

Stories are one thing. Being/living the story builds character and humility. Surviving these things is the gateway to wisdom. Not many folks, especially in the US, would even grok what I'm talking about.
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