[asg70]

People need something to believe in. It doesn't have to be a supreme being, but it needs to be some sense of purpose. I was raised atheist and a lot of people assume that because of it, there's no way for me to lead a virtuous life, because they assume I need to fear rotting in hell to avoid temptation. But people do have a moral compass. It's a highly subjective one, of course, which is why people rationalize bad behavior all the time, but we do see things in right and wrong.

The constant fighting on the internet is just that. Anytime someone utters the word "should" they are thinking in terms of right and wrong. Politics and setting policy is all about right and wrong. This usually involves a moral dilemma of some sort. War is the ultimate moral dilemma.

Doomerism raises huge moral dilemmas which we all know about.

So much of the posting here revolves around "shoulds" and "should nots". People point their judgmental finger at one segment of society while giving their own environmental footprint a free-pass. You see this with Planty sermonizing about AGW one moment and bragging about flying from Alaska to Greece the next. The finger just starts pointing around in a big circle of cognitive dissonance.

These dark emotions are about how we bristle at the idea that we've met the enemy and it's us.

That's why there are literally hundreds if not thousands of posts in this forum that go back to 2004 or whenever things started here that rant about one thing or the other. Suburbanites, GW Bush, Obama, the house of Saud, Madison Avenue, the Koch Brothers, on and on and on.... The blame-game.

We've met the enemy and it's us. You can argue on who deserves the most guilt, but it's us, all of us.

The "dark emotions" are therefore mostly about the stages of grief, anger especially.

I keep coming back to this George Harrison clip to keep me going.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrkQOMsSYaE

[SeaGypsy]

I too was raised atheist, but read plenty of religions, hung out with them etc. I've had a very interesting spiritual journey, which has not been dictated by any religion. I believe in taking personal responsibility for one's own actions & beliefs. Any persistent concurrence with the empirical churches, all i hear is sheep noises. They are all riddled with self contradictions, psych games & deliberate rejection of them is a studied duty, to me at least.

[Newfie]

I think rejection or acceptance of religion has a lot to do with your need for community. IMHO most atheists are loners. I belonged to an atheist church for a long time. Good idea but it too had a lot of issues. I outgrew it.

[onlooker]

I have come to the conclusion that no fits all model exists foe everyone. That each of our journeys is quite unique and individual. Having said that I feel that it is not healthy for anyone to dwell on dark negative emotions or allow them to linger. We cannot avoid them and they can offer great lessons but I think only with positive emotions can one maintain peace and attain a sense of fulfillment or satisfaction from this life and it's experiences

[Ibon]

Chameleon strategy is the best, merge and go along with whatever group you are in, be accepting of any and all religious belief systems but keep that private quarter of your brain intact where you realize they are all using crutches to cope with being a sentient mortal who will one day be digested by worms.

[Cog]

Ya'll need Jesus in the worst possible way. I will pray for your doomed, yet valuable souls tomorrow.

[SeaGypsy]

The bloke's name wasn't even "Jesus", it was something sounding more like "Yeshua ben Yosep". For all any nominal "Christian" (Greco- Roman convert to Messianic Judaism, reformist or otherwise) knows, my relationship to the so called "Trinity" is as close or closer than theirs. Just because I reject your brand of faith, your institution, means nothing about my relationship with "God" (read your Bible, it agrees with this position).

Re Ibon's chameleon, mostly I agree, but for a perspective that "I" is/am a spiritual being in a material body, something most if not all religions express. On a scientific level, there are known to be multiple dimensions existing which are barely understood at all. That's enough "Great Mystery" for me to allow myself & everyone else to believe whatever we like about what, if anything, survives the flames/ worm fest.

Meanwhile i am sick of people "praying to God" to fix- ie take responsibility for- things which are perceived as wrong in the world, as if that is doing something- whilst refusing to actually do anything about these wrongs themselves.

[rockdoc123]

The bloke's name wasn't even "Jesus", it was something sounding more like "Yeshua ben Yosep"

In Arabic ben means 'son of ' so what this is saying is Yeshua son of Yosep. If you believe Yosep is Joseph then the jump from Yeshua to Jesus lingually isn't huge.

I doubt, however, the name was important.

[asg70]

I doubt, however, the name was important.

I don't either. In the same way that drug addicts got off drugs by becoming Hare Krishnas and struggling entertainers on the brink of despair found a way out through Dianetics (aka Scientology) there is a functional self-help aspect to religion which I fully endorse. Literalists and dogmatists are the ones who make trouble.

[Plantagenet]

Chameleon strategy is the best, merge and go along with whatever group you are in, be accepting of any and all religious belief systems but keep that private quarter of your brain intact where you realize they are all using crutches to cope with being a sentient mortal who will one day be digested by worms.

I agree to a point.

If you’re in a fanatical and totalitarian setting like the Spanish Inquisition, Russia under Stalin, or modern Islamic States like Iran or PKistan, you’d be wise to be a chameleon. But in the liberal west we are free to think and say and be almost anything. We are lucky— no need to be a chameleon

Cheers

[Yoshua]

Lucifer (morning star, Venus): I'm the light bringer.
Jesus (The Sun): I'm the light.



We used to live in a solar world. Astrology was science and religion. As above, so below.

The Sun has 12 followers (the Zodiac). Spring is wedding time. The Sun heats the ocean. Rain clouds form and water the wine yards. The Sun turns water into wine.

The Sun represents life. The dark cold space represents death.

[evilgenius]

You know what's really weird, everything is actually taking place in your head. Everything most people do they do with a sense of judgment over themselves as to whether or not it is acceptable. We refer to others all of the time, if not actual others, then an other we make up. We constipate over our place in society. We call wealth what it means to have it in relation to others. We make our lives about comparison. If you don't think for yourself, however, who are you? Are fear, doubt and shame all that real? Of course they are, it's plain to see they can be indispensable tools of your reason, but does that mean they ought to gnaw at you? In another weird way, the order of the sun and planets can show you something about how to put those things into proper perspective rather than let them rule over you. Even if you have them because of the worst sort of abuse that has happened to you, you ought to be able to free yourself based upon that example. But their efficacy pales in comparison with meeting God.

Yeah, that God character again. You gotta ask yourself, if the brain is the place where our intellect is located, the place necessary for memory, then what is a spirit in the first place? How could a spirit form any memories? A spirit would have to be more like something that stood for something. It'd have to be some kind of fully realized being, assuming we could call it a living thing. That kind of a being would have to enter into the world in a rather strange way. It'd have to be both that sort of permanent fixture across time and the changing sort of being that can form memories. I think that's supposed to be the real power in the Christ, the anointed one, example. But even that is outside of you, like the planets, when everything is actually taking place in your head. If you meet God, you have to realize the only place you can really meet Him is in your own thoughts. It happens the same way that you defer to fear, or the anxiety of shame, or, even, your personal self-assurance, only this time you greet it with faith.

[onlooker]

I do not think we should ever discount logic and reasonining to view anything. That applies to transcental supernatural things as well. So, my logic for believing in God is that from all our empirical and casual observations, things in this Universe have a cause and effect. But you meet with a conundrum when you try and contemplate what could have sprung anything into existence. What is the original cause and should not that cause have itself a cause. See where I am leading. That to me is the miracle of all this existence that anything even exists much less with any order or coherence. So this points to me towards God in that his omnipotence does not require any prior cause or reason. He transcends existence ie. the Universe as he has always been and always will be and was the intellect behind the creation of our Universe.

[asg70]

in the liberal west we are free to think and say and be almost anything.

No. We're not free to think and say almost anything. Political correctness has reached thought-police levels. If you're a white male in this country you've been confined to a very narrow box of socially acceptable expression and it keeps shrinking.

[Plantagenet]

If you're a white male in this country you've been confined to a very narrow box of socially acceptable expression and it keeps shrinking.

Don’t be afraid to say politically incorrect things.

Always be intellectually honest and go ahead say what you really think. To heck with the PC thought police

Cheers!

[Ibon]

But in the liberal west we are free to think and say and be almost anything. We are lucky— no need to be a chameleon

Cheers

I wasn't suggesting chameleon strategy only for survival, I was also suggesting it for just respect for others who choose to believe differently. Here on this forum I will express my opinion that folks who believe in religions use it as a crutch but I would never bring this up when interacting with a religious person. I recognize that many religious people have this contradictory duality between arrogance in believing their own religion being "the true one" and then having so little faith that when challenged they so easily feel persecuted and insulted. You have to tread lightly around religious people for this reason so I choose to not challenge what they believe even though my unstated opinion is that they struggle acknowledging the obvious. Compassion is also there as well. It is not easy being a sentient mortal.

People need something to believe in. It doesn't have to be a supreme being, but it needs to be some sense of purpose.

Furthermore it is not easy to find purpose and meaning when ecologically you as an individual are a unit in excess of carrying capacity. Part of a huge population currently parasitic on other eco systems, parasitic in extraction practices.

Spiritual well being is ultimately rooted in ecological balance. Meaning and purpose in times of human overshoot is tough. Not easy. Hard to rationalize some purpose that actually contributes to the issue when let's face it, your very existence as stated above represents a unit that is in excess of carrying capacity.

This represents a dark shadow that follows all of your pursuits of self actualization. And yet it must otherwise you are not being totally honest with yourself.

[Yoshua]

I have heard that all religious texts are written in code with seven layers. Each layer should guide the searcher and give a deeper religious experience. The seventh layer is only reveled to the initiated priesthood. I don't remember the different layers, but they were something like: The story, symbolism, astrology... I guess that everything in the universe is part of this mysterious existence.

[asg70]

Furthermore it is not easy to find purpose and meaning when ecologically you as an individual are a unit in excess of carrying capacity. Part of a huge population currently parasitic on other eco systems, parasitic in extraction practices.

Sure, if you look at it through the cold lens of Agent Smith from The Matrix. Not everyone looks at it that way.

Spiritual well being is ultimately rooted in ecological balance.

Bullshit. If people gave a shit about ecological balance we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. The only people who look it this way are ex-posters like that Montequest guy.

Even in that Twilight Zone about bomb shelters there was a certain amount of anguish involved in keeping people out. Only psychopaths will feel no empathy for those kicked off the lifeboat. We'll do what we have to do to survive but what makes us human is we won't like having to do it.

I would also argue that the more decadent our lifestyles, the more it makes people self-centered and non-spiritual (think Miley Cyrus Tinder swiping lifestyles). A little hardship would do society a little good, actually. There's a sweet spot there.

[Ibon]

Furthermore it is not easy to find purpose and meaning when ecologically you as an individual are a unit in excess of carrying capacity. Part of a huge population currently parasitic on other eco systems, parasitic in extraction practices.

Sure, if you look at it through the cold lens of Agent Smith from The Matrix. Not everyone looks at it that way.

People know the world is over crowded and that life is becoming a grand game of musical chairs even if they do not understand human overshoot in cold hard ecological terms. Suddenly we are building walls to keep out hordes of immigrants and rising seas. Those external walls are symbolic and this creates in the psyche of individuals a contracted and defensive outlook on the world. From this perspective it is easy to understand that purpose and meaning then become either a primitive game of musical chairs fighting over diminishing scraps or a more enlightened perspective of pulling together in hardship. It is most likely a mix of both with the cooperating pulling together happening in your In Group and the competition of fighting over scraps against the Out Group.

Spiritual well being is ultimately rooted in ecological balance.

Bullshit. If people gave a shit about ecological balance we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. The only people who look it this way are ex-posters like that Montequest guy.

Again, I was not suggesting that folks are directly tying their spiritual well being to an understanding of ecological balance. I was referring to something far more basic. On top of all the higher human ideals lies the bedrock of a healthy biosphere and healthy eco systems.

I do agree about hardships honing human virtue which we now have in short supply due to over indulgences. So yes, there is potential of spiritual wellbeing in she sense of service to others and self sacrifice which many will choose as human overshoot progresses to debilitating external consequences.

Religious beliefs decline and secular beliefs increase with education and wealth. It is not only because education lifts you above superstitious belief systems. It is also because education and wealth breeds more individuals who fine tune their own needs and wants and are therefore less inclined to surrender in faith over to a higher being.

Poor countries are more religious not only because their lack of education and poverty gives them no outlet so they therefore only have prayer to a god as the only option. Poor countries breed populations more inclined to self sacrifice and service. You will find more generosity in a poor person than a rich person. The bible alludes to this so this is not something that is only a product of industrial civilization. This goes way back.

I have often stated that hell is what we will be leaving behind. We are so saturated with self indulgence and narcissism that upcoming hardships will force emerging generations to re acquaint themselves with service and self sacrifice and not always getting what you want.

There are silver linings....

[evilgenius]

Well, you know, information is traveling much more freely these days. Some people would say that should make it easier to make decisions. I don't think that's true. What you are seeing, when discussing the rise of aberrant behavior, is most likely the same thing that was put forward in the creation story, when they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. What happens to people when they have too much information is that they undergo a kind of paralysis. It turns out that people are much better at making decisions, especially those moral ones, when they have a set of choices rather than an entirely random range of options in front of them.

There has been an erosion of historical institutions and norms that formerly set up that kind of structure for people. The flow of information has undermined that somewhat. Most of the time that has actually been a good thing. Formerly disenfranchised people now seem to have voices. Hearkening back, as in the case of your average Trump supporter, is one way that people have found to confront this paralysis. What people won't admit about hearkening back, though, is that it doesn't make the new complexity go away. It just denies it.

You can choose to rant about those kneeling football players on the basis of how they disrespect something you care about, for instance, but you do so at your peril if you also choose to ignore what they are actually protesting at the same time. If you want them to quit kneeling, the easiest way would be to show them some respect. Otherwise, demanding some realignment with the old order is only a recipe for worse. I know, it does help sort things out as well, but even more intractable things like climate change won't go away because of a retreat into a more primitive mindset. There isn't any reason why humanity has to go about naked, that is to say, clothed in only the garments of yesterday, which are a sort of nakedness in the face of the new reality. All that it takes is a willingness to embrace the truth that lies within the new, and incorporate that within ourselves. It is about embracing the reality of those dark emotions, and finding their wisdom. If we don't we run the risk of cowering in shame before God, again.