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The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby roccman » Mon 06 Nov 2017, 15:17:17

onlooker wrote:How, can anyone at this point defend this hyper industrial world that is leading our species into utter catastrophe.


It is a matter of perspective. one group - are "metal and wheels" the other group "organic life". The former are those who make laws and print money - the latter, everyone else.

Earth is viewed by the "metal and wheel" group as a means.

Rudolf Steiner's the Acanthus Leaf - is worth the read. There is a graver's chisle and a driving chisle - and the "surface". To understand the "surface" one needs to understand the Ark of Upnepistim - or the New Jerusalem - there is a global rubric of units and measures that has been in existence since man stepped out of the cave - a rubic designed to keep peace - Architecture of Norman Foster is worth looking into for present day application of this rubric - specifically related to Astana.

in other words - the Metal/wheel folk have a plan - and this plan is ancient and is seen everywhere in monumental architecture, in music, in geometry, art. The quadrivium if you will.

The "organic" folk do not have a plan other than "love" and even that is waning at best - most are highly emotional, irrational beings, that can never be satisfied and no amount of leadership, rubber boot across throat, or suffering will change this condition. This group is hopeless - yet we do not see it. What is more - love is used as leverage for the"metal/wheel" folk to fight wars. Hey, if we are gullible enough to fall for it - why not keep the herd occupied in the slaughter of each who "love".

Now what side would you stand on if you had a wider perspective?
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 06 Nov 2017, 15:49:21

I stand on the side of the "Organic folk". Our evolution is characterized by both our cognitive ascension interspersed with our emotional nature. The irrationality of emotion is not a valid argument. Emotions per say do not function on the level of cognitive discernment. They are reactions to our experiences via the world and existence we are born into. As an example neither Love nor Hate is irrational.

The Metal/Wheel folk are informed by emotion and that is one of domination/achievement. That is their plan. But that plan stands out now in hindsight as nefarious. I say this because it is a destructive plan that is systematically destroying. Cancer has a plan to nullify the body's defences and grow. Well, this metal and wheel folk seem akin to Cancer. We grow to dominate and as we dominate we grow ever more.

But ultimately, as sentient beings who feel we cannot escape the moral dimensions of what we do or do not do. So, the plan of the metal folk in my view is evil. If the organic folk are irrational at least they can access love and allow love to permeate their decision making. To act consistent with Love and informed by Love may be viewed by some as irrational. By others like me view it as something akin to sacred. For by acting with Love and feeling it we are being true to the ultimate Plan which is to be in harmony with existence , with each other and with ourselves. I can think of no more important and worthwhile Plan.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby roccman » Mon 06 Nov 2017, 16:06:28

onlooker wrote:
But ultimately, as sentient beings who feel we cannot escape the moral dimensions of what we do or do not do. So, the plan of the metal folk in my view is evil.


Perhaps, but this is not certain. Although i do think the blacksmith is the jealous type ;)

I am reminded of the noble horse and the yahoo in Gulliver's Travels. The yahoo provided just enough "sentientness" to be slaves and brutes and not enough to be wise. Perhaps Swift was alluding to humans as yahoos.

I get that the only thing a scorpion can do is sting, but that did not help the trusting frog. Maybe there is something not quite right about the "organic" model. Maybe the creator was jealous.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby roccman » Mon 06 Nov 2017, 20:45:52

onlooker wrote:
But ultimately, as sentient beings who feel we cannot escape the moral dimensions of what we do or do not do. So, the plan of the metal folk in my view is evil. If the organic folk are irrational at least they can access love and allow love to permeate their decision making. To act consistent with Love and informed by Love may be viewed by some as irrational. By others like me view it as something akin to sacred. For by acting with Love and feeling it we are being true to the ultimate Plan which is to be in harmony with existence , with each other and with ourselves. I can think of no more important and worthwhile Plan.


George Price proved mathematically that humans tend to act altruistically toward those that are genetically closet to oneself.

Loving ones kids is easy.

This is where love ends for all intents and purposes. Love as validation of the organic model, I think, is very weak. And the wars fought for love should be evidence enough that to love ones kids in exchange for this "divine" experience is woefully misguided.

A note on "harmony with existence". Nature shows no mercy... At all, ever. Humans, maybe some sea mammals, some primates perhaps, but predominately humans, show mercy.

Nature, in fact, is locked in strict obedience for all things. There is no "free will", mostly chance and fate.

So to be in harmony, would necessarily mean to be mostly a slave.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 06 Nov 2017, 21:01:39

roccman wrote:
onlooker wrote:
But ultimately, as sentient beings who feel we cannot escape the moral dimensions of what we do or do not do. So, the plan of the metal folk in my view is evil. If the organic folk are irrational at least they can access love and allow love to permeate their decision making. To act consistent with Love and informed by Love may be viewed by some as irrational. By others like me view it as something akin to sacred. For by acting with Love and feeling it we are being true to the ultimate Plan which is to be in harmony with existence , with each other and with ourselves. I can think of no more important and worthwhile Plan.


George Price proved mathematically that humans tend to act altruistically toward those that are genetically closet to oneself.


This is based on the theory kin selection, altruism toward kin helps preserve genes similar to your own. There is some basis for this.

When it comes to sexual selection and attraction it is quite different. The more genetically similar you are the less attraction.

The famous dirty T shirt study.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/libr ... 16_08.html
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby roccman » Mon 06 Nov 2017, 23:06:12

Ibon wrote:
This is based on the theory kin selection, altruism toward kin helps preserve genes similar to your own. There is some basis for this.


That I believe was key in early human days. Without the beginning core nucleus of "love", clans would have dissolved before they became larger enough to protect the boundaries of the home range. Later to take home range.

By design? I'd plant a tomato seed in the best soil possible to insure survival.

Is love outdated as a force to unite? Was it ever intended as such?
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 07 Nov 2017, 00:02:55

roccman wrote:Is love outdated as a force to unite? Was it ever intended as such?


Love has many flavors. The love professed by religious leaders like Jesus is called agape. That's what we need the most.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape

Secular humanists at their peak could also approach agape but it's corrupted by SJWs as a way to gain power/status through virtue / victimhood.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby roccman » Tue 07 Nov 2017, 09:47:19

asg70 wrote:
roccman wrote:Is love outdated as a force to unite? Was it ever intended as such?


Love has many flavors. The love professed by religious leaders like Jesus is called agape. That's what we need the most.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape

Secular humanists at their peak could also approach agape but it's corrupted by SJWs as a way to gain power/status through virtue / victimhood.


Ah yes - agape.

I have oft considered this notion and the best i can come up with - In spite of all - do the right thing.

Tolstoy, in Anna Karenina, writes - humans have been given rationale to distract us from the titanic amount of evil in the world (or something close, it's been a few months since i read it).

So - here we stand - recognizing evil exists - that humans are consumed by evil - participate in evil - and virtually powerless to turn the tide of evil.

Or maybe not. I believe if one has had a personal experience with the divine (agape) other solutions become apparent. The orphic egg comes into view. Or at least this is how i see it. Now what to do with the serpent around the egg.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 07 Nov 2017, 10:17:32

Wow!

I for one do not believe evil exists except as a construct of the human mind.

I may say some one is evil, but that is wholly based upon a human perspective.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 07 Nov 2017, 10:41:37

You people are skirting the concepts popularized in the classic libertarian manifesto, Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress:

“A rational anarchist believes that concepts such as ‘state’ and ‘society’ and ‘government’ have no existence save as physically exemplified in the acts of self-responsible individuals. He believes that it is impossible to shift blame, share blame, distribute blame . . . as blame, guilt, responsibility are matters taking place inside human beings singly and nowhere else. But being rational, he knows that not all individuals hold his evaluations, so he tries to live perfectly in an imperfect world . . . aware that his effort will be less than perfect yet undismayed by self-knowledge of self-failure.”


When I brought this discussion to my HS government class in the late 1960's, my teacher was disturbed and perhaps a bit outraged.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby roccman » Tue 07 Nov 2017, 10:59:33

KaiserJeep wrote:You people are skirting the concepts popularized in the classic libertarian manifesto, Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress:

“A rational anarchist believes that concepts such as ‘state’ and ‘society’ and ‘government’ have no existence save as physically exemplified in the acts of self-responsible individuals.”


When I brought this discussion to my HS government class in the late 1960's, my teacher was disturbed and perhaps a bit outraged.


Douglas Adams in the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy (i forget which volume) writes - the purpose of politics is to distract the herd from the true power center and their plans (or something close to that).

I think Adams was right.

I also think a great unveiling of the truth is underfoot. I have found it particularly interesting how most all governments that hold some perceivable sway whether militarily, economically, or politically seem to be acting in a sort of choreographed two step. Proxy conflict here, calibrating currencies there, mixed with a "shock story", new laws - a kind of syncing up. All timed precisely with growing populations and reduced elasticity in energy supplies.

From Steiner's Acanthus Leaf:

Think for a moment of a word, in all its primordial import, proceeding from our living Spiritual Science and beating against these walls. It seems to hollow out the form which really corresponds to it. Therefore I at least was satisfied from the very outset that we should work in the following way: with chisel and mallet we have a surface in mind from the beginning, for with the left hand we drive the driving chisel in the direction which will eventually be that of the surface. From the very outset we drive in this direction. On the other hand we hold the graver's chisel at right angles to the surface.

It would have been my wish — only it was not to be — that we should have had no such surfaces as these (pointing to an architrave). They will only be right — when something is taken away from them. This roundness here must be eliminated. It would have been better if from the very beginning we had worked with the graver's chisel for then there would have been no protuberance but only a surface.


Is Steiner using the architrave as an analogy of sorts. What are the protuberances? A graver's chisel? Odd language for use on a stone. What is the "something" that "is taken away" - from "them"? The architrave is a horizontal element between the columns and the capital. It equally distributes the load of the capital onto the columns.

http://wn.rsarchive.org/Lectures/GA286/English/APC1927/19140607p01.html
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 07 Nov 2017, 11:42:22

roccman wrote:Douglas Adams in the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy (i forget which volume) writes - the purpose of politics is to distract the herd from the true power center and their plans (or something close to that).
I think Adams was right.


That just tells me creative people tend to skew paranoid and anti-establishment. That sort of sentiment is right up there with PK Dick or Terry Gilliam.

The way to move beyond this thinking is more...anthropological. I'm not talking about Dan Quinn Ishmael, even, but to recognize that the way things are is ultimately the only way it can be.

For instance, if every citizen in North Korea suddenly got up and stormed the Bastille, so to speak, then that dictatorship would be over. Why does that not happen?

What happens AFTER revolutions?

More often than not, the new order is just as bad if not worse than what came before. The communist revolutions in Russia and China racked up huge body counts. It was a different sort of suffering imposed on its people, but suffering nonetheless.

So why is there this constant drumbeat of "them" "they" "TPTB", etc....?

To me, it's yet another opiate to imagine that simply knocking the top off the 1% will fix our problems. People are always looking for quick fixes (or dare I say it, final solutions). But at the end of the day, our problems just keep being renewed, generation after generation.

That's not to say that corruption and abuse in high places should not be checked, but that this seems to be the natural order of things. Pecking orders just keep emerging again and again and again. It's hard to have such a holier than thou attitude when you realize that human nature keeps producing people who behave selfishly and that there will always be underclasses who just play along and don't make waves.

At some point you have to just accept that this is who we are as a species, inherently flawed.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 07 Nov 2017, 12:03:51

"At some point you have to just accept that this is who we are as a species, inherently flawed."

What nonsense. We are not flawed, we are what we are and that is a perfect ontological expressions of our phylogeny. We express our genes as tool-using hominids in the order primate. We are territorial, social animals that rely on language and communication to establish boundaries, and maintain group identity and cohesion. This behavior is not unique, exists on a continuum among many different mammalian species (for example wolves orcas etc.). It is a function of kin and especially group selection functionality.

The problem is over population and forced containment. We were long ago moved into industrial production ghettos, convenient for the bosses but hell for the proles. Rats intentionally bred densely (experimentally) in a cages without boundries tend to display similar dysfunctional behavior. Most adult rats retract into either depressive unhealthy or frantic self-destructive states. But ALWAYS a few particular narcissistic rats seem to rise above the squalor and breed and flourish unusually. See Trump as an example
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 07 Nov 2017, 13:21:37

pstarr wrote:The problem is over population and forced containment.


How did we get here? The cumulative actions of humans. It's a closed system, right? So we have to, collectively, take ownership of the end product. Attempting to shift blame around disregards the fact that Trump, Pol Pot, Hitler, etc..., and all the suburbanites you despise, were/are all humans.

It's the selfish gene, tragedy of the commons, and not being smarter than yeast.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 07 Nov 2017, 14:06:04

We always come back to this flawed species meme and not being smarter than yeast.

And yet this current human overshoot episode in only now, after quite a few generations, reaching the point when consequences will provide the opportunity to definitively either confirm or prove wrong this meme.

It is too premature, when we still have not yet reacted to the consequences of human overshoot, to arrive to the conclusion that as a civilization we are incapable of self regulation is a balanced steady state.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby roccman » Tue 07 Nov 2017, 14:42:28

Ibon wrote:We always come back to this flawed species meme and not being smarter than yeast.

And yet this current human overshoot episode in only now, after quite a few generations, reaching the point when consequences will provide the opportunity to definitively either confirm or prove wrong this meme.

It is too premature, when we still have not yet reacted to the consequences of human overshoot, to arrive to the conclusion that as a civilization we are incapable of self regulation is a balanced steady state.


Perhaps - this is by design. That what steiner alludes to is a systematic reduction of "free will" a dulling of the irrational aspects of a human. That, that which animates life whether in a blade of grass or human can be rationed. Subsequent generations are less human, yet are still rationale (or less irrational) - dumbed down as it were. The result, a more compliant and obedient slave.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 07 Nov 2017, 15:16:51

roccman wrote:The result, a more compliant and obedient slave.


This is an interesting question. Can we self regulate as a collective and preserve free will.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby roccman » Tue 07 Nov 2017, 15:25:07

Ibon wrote:
roccman wrote:The result, a more compliant and obedient slave.


This is an interesting question. Can we self regulate as a collective and preserve free will.


hmmm, not exactly what i was driving at but you seem to understand the direction i was going.

In my mind - there is no "self-regulation" rather it is imposed by a yet undefined "third party". and that the intent of this third party is not preservation of "free will", but the reduction of it. That each generation that is born - is more obedient - less free.

I am being intentionally opaque because what i am suggesting does not fall neatly in the "scientific method" bucket. That the reduction of free will - through the division of "that which animates life" occurs beyond death. That new humans are less "animated" when born.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 07 Nov 2017, 17:54:06

roccman wrote:
Ibon wrote:
roccman wrote:The result, a more compliant and obedient slave.


This is an interesting question. Can we self regulate as a collective and preserve free will.


hmmm, not exactly what i was driving at but you seem to understand the direction i was going.

In my mind - there is no "self-regulation" rather it is imposed by a yet undefined "third party". and that the intent of this third party is not preservation of "free will", but the reduction of it. That each generation that is born - is more obedient - less free.

I am being intentionally opaque because what i am suggesting does not fall neatly in the "scientific method" bucket. That the reduction of free will - through the division of "that which animates life" occurs beyond death. That new humans are less "animated" when born.


I am not interested at all in the metaphysical questions regarding that which animates life that occurs beyond death. Except how death itself frames the way we live. This is relevant to the individual in how he deals with the existential conundrum of being a sentient mortal who will one day return the great food chain in the sky and earth but equally relevant to the collective that moves through the correction of human overshoot witnessing the death rate exceed the birthrate. If and when this happens we will witness the potential of a radical new perspective where free will itself will be applied.... the question being will free will desire without a 3rd party security and stability of the "whole" , meaning the earth or biosphere or macro environment over a philosophy of say a libertarian kind of individual above all else.

We always assume that physical external feedbacks of human overshoot will create this tug of war between free will and self regulation which is another form of collectivism.

What if free will and individual freedom actually slides into parallel sync with collectivist self regulation. This might seem impossible at the moment but not if the instabilities of the consequences threaten individual well being to the point that collective self regulation becomes invisible like oxygen in the room instead of some 3rd party authority. Moves in the direction of common sense the same way it is today when you flush the toilet after taking a dump. Nobody sees this as a choice to flush or not. Nobody sees this as an ideological struggle. Nobody is submitting to the will of a 3rd party being forced to flush.

This could happen when external consequences become transcendent.
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Re: The Wisdom Of The Dark Emotions

Unread postby evilgenius » Tue 07 Nov 2017, 19:41:05

I think the thread is addressing life too much as a winner take all proposition, especially in terms of government. Historically, under the divine right of kings, that may have been true. Democracy is a whole other beast. It's a system. As such, various voices come and go. At times one or the other may reign supreme. Few hold over all aspects of life.

My greatest concern for man, greater than peak oil, is what will happen when the money system comes to a halt because the normal means of both occupying ourselves, fretting about and getting it, and trading over it becomes obsolete. The money system is horrid. It creates all kinds of untoward distortions, both ecologically and sociologically. The best ways of dealing in systems are to recognize and act according to a place within a system. The best way with money is to understand one's class nature and both act according to and fight for it. Under both capitalism and communism those get distorted. Class is either rejected or made to fit into something it can't. One class cannot rule everything. Even the one percent are having a hard time, as witnessed by what their decisions have wrought upon the world, and how blindly they keep seeking more of the same.

My proposition has been to split up corporate ownership into more of a rock, paper, scissors type of game. There would need to be a new class of stock, one which got its income a different way than from a market for buying and selling it, generally. It would increase and decrease as the market capitalization of companies did, but it wouldn't serve to drive those expansions and contractions. The more speculative common and preferred shares would still do that. It would have to derive its income from the pool of money available for the executives to receive either their total pay, or, I think more preferably, their incentive pay.

Then that class would vote as to how much of what they would otherwise get paid would instead go to the executives in order to provide for their share. On the surface it's a design for countering the one percent, when you consider their power over things today. What it could be, though, is the beginning of thinking about how to keep the idea of money as a thing that provides incentive, as a driver of human endeavor and a shaper of success.

It would keep money viable as a means for men to communicate to each other on that level as money itself was threatened with extinction under the age of artificial intelligence and the permanent loss of jobs. A means of keeping the system a system and not allowing it to roll back into the age of the divine right of kings, of not allowing the rich to own everything. A means to provide for people to continue to have voices. Obviously, much more than that would have to occur. Folks would have to decide what would happen regarding real estate, what to do about accumulation of wealth gained upon that basis and whether those people ought to have their ability to participate curtailed in some way, or allow them to push the little people into nonexistence. Such a group of shareholders, though, if they owned about as much of companies as, say, the bottom ninety percent own of wealth today, as a percentage of total stock, but had such say over the welfare of those who earn, and need incentive to keep earning, the lion's share, might serve to maintain the system.
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