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THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby GHung » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 12:37:47

ROCKMAN wrote:Ghung - Given the cost of shipping diesel to the station I suspect their wind project was the most profitable alt effort on the planet.


Yep. I'm betting their next wind turbines will be even better, considering the success of these old turbines. I wonder if they dump surplus wind energy into heating their buildings. Easy to do with a few simple controls and resistive load heaters (which are essentially 100% efficient). May as well keep the camp warm and toasty while the wind blows. I wonder how many diesels they have gone through over those years.

I would have great fun crawling through their systems.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 12:47:12

Ghung - I suspect many of the "youngsters" don't know about the near military confrontation between the Texas National Guard and federal authorities 30+ years ago. Texas was running so short of NG the gov threatened to shut off interstate pipelines at our border. And thus was born a very favorite bumper sticker in Texas referencing our Yankee cousins: "Let them freeze in the dark". Not just a joke to a lot of Texans. One reason the Yankees should be pleased with our alt expansion. And our big lignite reserves. At least they have the Marcellus Shale...for now.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 18:36:13

Got to the boat today. Irene ate my wind gen blades. I had them tied off but I guess it was too much.

Anyway, need new blades. BUT Aerogen/LVM was bought by Jabso (pump people) who discontinued this fine product line. Obsolete. No spares support.

Thrashing about online trying to find someone with blades. I had a couple of spares l, but I need a full new set. DAMN!
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby GHung » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 19:17:04

Newfie wrote:Got to the boat today. Irene ate my wind gen blades. I had them tied off but I guess it was too much.

Anyway, need new blades. BUT Aerogen/LVM was bought by Jabso (pump people) who discontinued this fine product line. Obsolete. No spares support.

Thrashing about online trying to find someone with blades. I had a couple of spares l, but I need a full new set. DAMN!


How much for a new wind genny? Looks like they've come down a lot.

BTW: How do you get wifi into your boats? Above deck antenna?
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 19:54:24

Newfie wrote:Got to the boat today. Irene ate my wind gen blades. I had them tied off but I guess it was too much.

Anyway, need new blades. BUT Aerogen/LVM was bought by Jabso (pump people) who discontinued this fine product line. Obsolete. No spares support.

Thrashing about online trying to find someone with blades. I had a couple of spares l, but I need a full new set. DAMN!



Sounds like an opportunity to upgrade your blades to much more efficient types.

https://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/wi ... wind-power
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 12 Nov 2017, 13:02:21

Ghung - No application in warm Texas but have long thought a cheap alternative to battery storage was super insulated oil tanks to dump exceeds electricity and the use for space heating as needed. And essentially an unlimited lifetime compared to batteries.

But now we have electric plans in Texas offering free late night and weekend electricity. Maybe enough cold up north in Texas to justify such energy storage: run the oil heaters full blast when power is free.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 12 Nov 2017, 13:53:50

The wind gen is manufactured discontinued, no support. Most bits are pretty standard. I have spare bearings for instance. The BLADES? Nope, special, no alternate.

A D400 is $2k plus mount and regulation.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 12 Nov 2017, 15:39:43

ROCKMAN wrote:Ghung - No application in warm Texas but have long thought a cheap alternative to battery storage was super insulated oil tanks to dump exceeds electricity and the use for space heating as needed. And essentially an unlimited lifetime compared to batteries.

But now we have electric plans in Texas offering free late night and weekend electricity. Maybe enough cold up north in Texas to justify such energy storage: run the oil heaters full blast when power is free.

Why oil in the tanks?. Water works as well and cost less. Some wood fired boilers around here have 1000 gallon water tanks sitting beside them to buffer the ups and downs of wood heat.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby GHung » Sun 12 Nov 2017, 16:13:26

vtsnowedin wrote:
ROCKMAN wrote:Ghung - No application in warm Texas but have long thought a cheap alternative to battery storage was super insulated oil tanks to dump exceeds electricity and the use for space heating as needed. And essentially an unlimited lifetime compared to batteries.

But now we have electric plans in Texas offering free late night and weekend electricity. Maybe enough cold up north in Texas to justify such energy storage: run the oil heaters full blast when power is free.

Why oil in the tanks?. Water works as well and cost less. Some wood fired boilers around here have 1000 gallon water tanks sitting beside them to buffer the ups and downs of wood heat.


I use a 450 gallon tank in our utility room to store hot water from the PV dump and woodstove. Pump it through the floor in winter for heat and a coil of copper in the top does our DHW. The solar hot water system also heats it. It's just a big tank full of water treated with an anti-corrosion additive.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sun 12 Nov 2017, 17:18:35

vtsnowedin wrote:
ROCKMAN wrote:Ghung - No application in warm Texas but have long thought a cheap alternative to battery storage was super insulated oil tanks to dump exceeds electricity and the use for space heating as needed. And essentially an unlimited lifetime compared to batteries.

But now we have electric plans in Texas offering free late night and weekend electricity. Maybe enough cold up north in Texas to justify such energy storage: run the oil heaters full blast when power is free.

Why oil in the tanks?. Water works as well and cost less. Some wood fired boilers around here have 1000 gallon water tanks sitting beside them to buffer the ups and downs of wood heat.


Oil has some advantages and disadvantages. For one you can heat it to a much higher temperature without needing to pressurize the tank to prevent boiling. For another thing it is naturally anti-corrosive for the vast majority of materials. For a third if you choose a biodegradable oil form then waste treatment is easy peasy.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sun 12 Nov 2017, 19:10:47

Subjectivist wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:
ROCKMAN wrote:Ghung - No application in warm Texas but have long thought a cheap alternative to battery storage was super insulated oil tanks to dump exceeds electricity and the use for space heating as needed. And essentially an unlimited lifetime compared to batteries.

But now we have electric plans in Texas offering free late night and weekend electricity. Maybe enough cold up north in Texas to justify such energy storage: run the oil heaters full blast when power is free.

Why oil in the tanks?. Water works as well and cost less. Some wood fired boilers around here have 1000 gallon water tanks sitting beside them to buffer the ups and downs of wood heat.


Oil has some advantages and disadvantages. For one you can heat it to a much higher temperature without needing to pressurize the tank to prevent boiling. For another thing it is naturally anti-corrosive for the vast majority of materials. For a third if you choose a biodegradable oil form then waste treatment is easy peasy.

Being able to heat water from 70 degrees to 205F is enough for me. I don't want boiling oil or anything close to it in my basement in case of a house fire. If needed I'd use a bigger tank or multiple tanks. With water if you get a leak it just goes down the floor drain no problem. An oil leak not so much. And water doesn't cost $2.50 a gallon which is a lot of money to tie up in a way you can't use without going out of business on that system. A house in my town has a tank in the basement that is ten feet in diameter and five feet high. That is 3.3 million BTUs of of heat storage with an additional 750,000 before the house would drop below 40 degrees F. That is enough to last a week in mid winter in VT if the house is well built.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 12 Nov 2017, 19:49:26

vtsnowedin wrote:Being able to heat water from 70 degrees to 205F is enough for me. I don't want boiling oil or anything close to it in my basement in case of a house fire. If needed I'd use a bigger tank or multiple tanks. With water if you get a leak it just goes down the floor drain no problem. An oil leak not so much. And water doesn't cost $2.50 a gallon which is a lot of money to tie up in a way you can't use without going out of business on that system. A house in my town has a tank in the basement that is ten feet in diameter and five feet high. That is 3.3 million BTUs of of heat storage with an additional 750,000 before the house would drop below 40 degrees F. That is enough to last a week in mid winter in VT if the house is well built.


Oil has a lower heat capacity that water, 1.67 J/g vs 4.18 J/g for water. That means you can heat up your oil tank with about one third the energy to heat an equal volume of water. Effectively that means your system is able to respond more rapidly by reaching full temperature and then delivering those Joules of energy directly to the heating pipes you are using.

Who would ever need a thousand gallon tank for a buffering system? If your only goal is to store thermal energy long term than a water anti-freeze mix is fine as a solution, but if your goal is to make a liquid hot and use that liquid to provide dispersed heating to a home then oil will both heat and cool more quickly, meaning it will dump that heat in the radiator quicker than an equal volume of water which resists releasing its heat the same way it resists gaining heat on the input side of the calculation.

We went with forced air when we replaced our central furnace two years ago but we initially planned on a ground source heat pump using piped liquid to zone radiators that would have let us selectively heat some rooms and leave others passively heated through the interior walls. The options were pretty simple on the heat pump system, the ground loops were all stabilized non-toxic water, basically with a biodegradable form of anti-freeze mixture. Continuing the water system was the simpler solution and probably what we would have chosen but for rapid response of the base board radiators an oil system was optional.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 13 Nov 2017, 00:11:29

Why would you use oil if it has a lower heat capacity then water? The whole point is to store as many BTUs as possible and then use them when needed. For a house using wood heat such a system lets the owner leave for a few days without the fossil fuel backup turning on and lets him decide when during each day he loads the wood fire. The systems work for both baseboard hot water heaters or the modern in/under floor radiant heat tubes and can use tap water or non toxic anti freeze solution interchangeably.
I won't name company names but there is at least one international company that supplies these as complete systems. If they thought their customers would be better served with oil in the storage tank I'm sure they would offer it.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 13 Nov 2017, 07:49:00

vtsnowedin wrote:Why would you use oil if it has a lower heat capacity then water? The whole point is to store as many BTUs as possible and then use them when needed. For a house using wood heat such a system lets the owner leave for a few days without the fossil fuel backup turning on and lets him decide when during each day he loads the wood fire. The systems work for both baseboard hot water heaters or the modern in/under floor radiant heat tubes and can use tap water or non toxic anti freeze solution interchangeably.
I won't name company names but there is at least one international company that supplies these as complete systems. If they thought their customers would be better served with oil in the storage tank I'm sure they would offer it.


Clearly we are talking at cross purposes. Buffering tanks are one thing, heating tanks are a separate thing and this conversation has become a tangle with some talking about one, others talking about the opposite and a few conflating the two as being the same thing.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby GHung » Mon 13 Nov 2017, 08:59:14

Tanada wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:Why would you use oil if it has a lower heat capacity then water? The whole point is to store as many BTUs as possible and then use them when needed. For a house using wood heat such a system lets the owner leave for a few days without the fossil fuel backup turning on and lets him decide when during each day he loads the wood fire. The systems work for both baseboard hot water heaters or the modern in/under floor radiant heat tubes and can use tap water or non toxic anti freeze solution interchangeably.
I won't name company names but there is at least one international company that supplies these as complete systems. If they thought their customers would be better served with oil in the storage tank I'm sure they would offer it.


Clearly we are talking at cross purposes. Buffering tanks are one thing, heating tanks are a separate thing and this conversation has become a tangle with some talking about one, others talking about the opposite and a few conflating the two as being the same thing.


Both store surplus energy production as heat to be used for some purpose when that surplus production isn't available. Seems like a distinction without much difference.

As for water having a higher heat storage capacity, for my uses (and it seems I'm the only person here with experience in this), low and slow is fine for domestic heating purposes.

My tank is plastic guaranteed by the manufacturer to safely store hot liquid up to 165 F. It is in an insulated enclosure in my utility room which has two floor drains in case of failure of the tank. The tank also has 4 layers of 1" foam board wrapped around it, secured by steel straps which will help prevent catastrophic failure. Temps at the top of the tank rarely get above 160. Any hotter than that and a simple temp switch turns on the radiant floor pump to dump heat into the floor of the house. Bringing the temp above 140 prevents the formation pf Legionella. In the summer, without the woodstove burning, the temp cycles from around 120-145. On a great solar day in winter, with the woodstove burning, temps can get up to max at which point the radiant floor kicks in and heats the floor in non-passive-solar spaces (bathrooms, etc.) We keep the floor in the master bath quite warm; very nice in winter.

All of these functions are performed by inexpensive controllers and pumps which only use a few watts. I found this DIY approach preferable to commercially available high temp stainless tanks with complex control systems, built-in heat exchangers,, all that. It was also cheaper because I collected the various parts from off-the-shelf sources. The heat exchanger for our domestic hot water is 3/4" copper coil pipe hung in the top of the tank and can easily be removed for replacement. The solar hot water system is closed loop and heats the tank through a similar coil of copper placed in the bottom of the tank. Radiant floor heat draws hot water directly from the tank which returns to the bottom after passing through the floor zone being heated. This cooler water at the bottom creates a greater temperature difference for the solar water heater system. All of the temperature sensors are standard 10K sensors, about $8 each. The tank looks like this.......

Image

..... Which stores water for the greenhouse now. This may seem a bit complex to you non-engineers, but is really a case of KISS; a grouping if simple systems I used to sacrifice a bit of efficiency for more resiliency and ease of repair. I expect the tank to last decades. All of the components are inexpensive and easy to replace. After 17 years in service, I've had no failures, and have changed out the water/anti-corrosive solution once as recommended by the manufacturer. No glycol in this solution because the tank water is never exposed to freezing or boiling temps.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 13 Nov 2017, 19:00:46

Woo Hoo! :-D

I found a set of blades!!!!

There MAY be a new source of supply opening in France. But my emails bounced.

Close one that was. I just hope the blades are correct.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby GHung » Mon 13 Nov 2017, 19:05:37

Newfie wrote:Woo Hoo! :-D

I found a set of blades!!!!

There MAY be a new source of supply opening in France. But my emails bounced.

Close one that was. I just hope the blades are correct.


Kudos! Do they have two sets?
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