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THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 14 May 2017, 07:42:14

There is a guy here in the marina where we are storing the boat for the summer.

He is 70. His knees are shot. His doctor won't agree to knee replacement until he gets his weight under control, down to 200. He has lost 150, has 200 to go.

His decades of excess are now catching up with him and he is being forced to confront the obvious. Painful though it may be.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 14 May 2017, 12:18:12

Newfie - At 70 yo he's already beat the odds. Going forward it's all lagniappe for him. LOL
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 14 May 2017, 13:24:36

Subjectivist wrote:
Squilliam wrote:DC is good to connect separate local grids because it doesn't matter what phase or alignment the power is on separate sides of the network. It is also good to transmit power over long distances with little in the way of losses. Given the fact that there are billions of dollars every year in the U.S.A. being injected into bubbles like housing or the stock market then giving it a home where it can make real returns on investment would be good, wouldn't it?


The theory sounds great, but housing bubbles are blown from millions of individual consumers getting individual loans. Restructuring the grid would be hudreds of major loans to major companies which is very different thing entirely.


I think what is meant is to convert the major tie links to HVDC. Large parts of that infrastructure are in need of replacement. The distribution network would remain AC. I don't see where it would require hundreds of loans. And even if it did they would be required to replace the existing aging infrastructure anyway.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby kiwichick » Sun 14 May 2017, 13:55:51

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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby kiwichick » Sun 14 May 2017, 13:57:58

@ T ......are China and India short of land to build solar power on?
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 14 May 2017, 15:27:30

Newfie wrote:There is a guy here in the marina where we are storing the boat for the summer.

He is 70. His knees are shot. His doctor won't agree to knee replacement until he gets his weight under control, down to 200. He has lost 150, has 200 to go.

His decades of excess are now catching up with him and he is being forced to confront the obvious. Painful though it may be.

This is a VERY common thing I see in the US. People being morbidly obese (even if much less than 550 pounds), and having knee or hip problems in their 70's. They comment on being warned by their doctors to lose weight before the joints go critical, and state they intend to, but somehow they never get around to it.

Maybe I'm missing something, but to me, PAIN is a very strong motivator. And if it's constant or even frequent, it's not like you're likely to forget the issue.

OTOH, maybe after a lifetime of doctors often being clueless or wrong about MANY health issues, such people don't consider the advice worth the sacrifice.

For me, I'm willing to try something. When my hips, especially my right hip began to get stiff and annoying, but not yet painful, I asked the doctor about it. When I affirmed that I like walking, he suggested I do more of it and more often. For me, nothing succeeds like success - the additional walking worked almost like magic. (And I'm not obese, but will confess to having gradually accumulated 30 pounds over the past 4 decades, so I'm no longer skinny either).
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby kublikhan » Sun 14 May 2017, 15:59:37

Tanada wrote:For China or India or Indonesia population densities are another order higher than they are for the USA making low energy density sources like solar and wind even less useful. In very high population countries they will be fortunate to get as much as 5 percent of grid power from intermittent renewables.
China already passed that threshold last year. Wind & solar combined generated 307 TWh in China. Total generation was 5,920 TWh. For an intermittent share of 5.2%.

Total electricity consumption in China rose to 5920 TWh last year. In 2016, wind turbines generated 241 TWh of electricity. Electricity generation from solar power grew by 72 percent with a cumulative generation of 66 TWh in 2016. The combined new electricity generation from hydro, wind and solar power amounted to 153 TWh in 2016. This new electricity generation by renewables in 2016 in China is almost on par with the electricity generation by all German renewables in 2016 with 186 TWh.
Power statistics China 2016: Huge growth of renewables amidst thermal-based generation

And China is throwing alot of money into renewables to keep growing that share:
Chinese manufacturing has changed the economics of renewable power around the world, making solar generation cost-competitive with electricity from fossil fuels like natural gas and even coal. It has brought change closer to home too, as China rolls out the world’s biggest investment in clean energy—motivated in part by a desire to ease the atrocious air pollution that kills an estimated 1.1 million of its people every year.

“The installation rates are absolutely mind-blowing,” says Lauri Myllyvirta, an energy and air pollution expert at Greenpeace in Beijing. China added 35 gigawatts of new solar generation in 2016 alone. “That’s almost equal to Germany’s total capacity, just in one year.” Every hour, China erects another wind turbine and installs enough solar panels to cover a soccer field.

After years of ignoring the air quality crisis that has resulted from decades of breakneck industrialization, China’s leaders have finally begun trying to solve it. And because coal is the source of an estimated 40 percent of the most dangerous pollution particles in the country’s air , finding alternatives to it has become a crucial priority. China aims to get 20 percent of its energy from renewable sources by 2030, and it recently announced it would spend $360 billion on the effort in just the next three years.
Three Reasons to Believe in China's Renewable Energy Boom
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 14 May 2017, 20:24:03

Outcast,
It was meant to be a metaphor for our human condition, playing off of Tanadas prior comment. Our infrastructure, (knees or the Earths biocapacity) is being stressed by the size of load (pounds or number of humans) it is being asked to support.

The obvious logical solution is to reduce the load (pounds or population) however unlikely that may be to succede for the reasons you state.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Squilliam » Sun 14 May 2017, 20:52:25

@Newfie: The unfortunately fact is that there is a recalcitrant refusal to make even the most minor steps (common sense, and almost universally seen as beneficial) that would help address the issue. Modern neo-luddites really that cannot see the positive aspects of this technological change out of fear of change.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 15 May 2017, 20:41:44

Ah, but is the vast majority of us that you describe. Not some THEM, TPTB,Mor 1%.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Mon 22 May 2017, 14:04:34

Big news!!! From our cohort Cloggie:

First US offshore wind farm began producing electricity earlier this month:

https://deepresource.wordpress.com/2017 ... wind-farm/

And here are some details about that first offshore wind farm that they might have forgotten to mention in the video:

So why all the local resistance delaying the project for many years? And apparently the basis for the lawsuits wasn’t over ruining the view but that the locals would be FORCED to pay more for the electricity then they were currently: Deepwater signed an agreement with National Grid to sell the power from the wind farm off Block Island, at an initial price of 24.4¢/kW·h.

“The permitting process for the project has been highly controversial, with the Rhode Island Public Utilities Commission (RIPUC) initially rejecting the agreement price with National Grid as being excessive to Rhode Island’s electricity rate payers. However the state law concerning the “commercial reasonability” of contract pricing was changed. After continuing controversy and appeals, the Rhode Island Supreme Court ruled in July 2011 to uphold the RIPUC decision. Opponents of the project raised issue about the contract pricing with FERC in August 2012, but FERC in October of the same year issued a decision that they would not act on the complaints. On May 11, 2015 a new complaint was filed with FERC alleging that the power purchase agreement with National Grid violates the Public Utilities Regulatory Policy Act of 1978 and further alleging that the RIPUC violated the Federal Power Act and the Supremacy Clause of the U.S. Constitution.

And why is it operating now: in July 2016 FERC issued the final order forcing the RI consumers to pay the 24.4¢/kW·h rate. Which is 40% higher then average rate for all sectors in the state…17.05¢. So there’s the great future of offshore winds farms along the east cost: economic to develop if local consumers are forced to pay much higher prices then they are currently.

That’s certainly something to brag about...NOT. BTW the electric rate average for all sectors in Texas is 8.63¢. And for industrial users… 5.5¢. I imagine that’s one reason so many industries are relocating to Texas

BTW here's a comparison between that offshore farm and an onshore one on the coast:

Imagine how much more wind power if they were spending the same money putting turbines on the coast. Like one of the biggest in the country on the S Texas shoreline. The 30 MW offshore east coast capacity compared our wind farm on the coast (operating for more then 6 years now) makes the east coast project look puny: The Papalote Creek Wind Farm in San Patricio County is an array of 196 wind turbines that can produce 380 MW of power. And how do the locals like having it “ruin the views”: The wind farm has added more than $500 million in value to the property tax base of San Patricio County and local school districts.

Those 380 MW cost $460 million to install onshore coastal Texas vs. $300 million to install those 30 MW offshore Rhode Island. Not that it was ever a real contest…but I think Texas won:

The Papalote Creek project provides enough clean wind power to supply about 114,000 homes while avoiding more than 684,000 tons of carbon dioxide emissions and saving half of a billion gallons of fresh water every year compared with a conventional fossil fuel plant. A fossil fuel plant that would been built to meet our booming demand had this wind farm not been built.
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Re: THE Wind Power Thread pt 3 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 23 May 2017, 23:04:35

And a bit more details as to why the Rhode Island public utility commission and state politicians had to FORCE the local consumers to accept the higher rates that justified what seems to be an uneconomic offshore wind farm:

"The other issue is the high price of power generated.
Right now, National Grid pays Deepwater Wind 24 cents per kilowatt hour {currently 17¢} generated. That price goes up annually, landing at nearly 48 cents per kilowatt hour in 20 years. The average price of electricity right now in New England is 16 cents per kilowatt hour.

But project officials say comparing the future price of offshore wind to the current average is misleading, since it too will increase with time, especially as coal and nuclear plants are decommissioned."

And that last statement is 100% bullsh*t. First, 95% of RI electricity is generated by burning NG. And back when inflation adjusted NG prices were 3X the current level electric rates weren't even close to the 24¢ currently being charged let alone 48¢. And according to locals the permit was approved remarkably fast. Perhaps having a former PUC commission quit and go to work the following year for the law firm representing the wind farm investors helped a tad. LOL.
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