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THE Wind Power Thread pt 2 (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Wind could supply enough power to meet US electricity needs

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 08 Apr 2009, 13:31:14

dohboi wrote:vt, sorry I didn't specify summer-time ice-free Arctic. Keep in mind that the most pessimistic models that the IPCC put out just two years ago showed an intact ice cap for at least decades. The most pessimistic models seem to regularly not be pessimistic enough, mostly because of the difficult of modeling interactions of multiple feedbacks.

But even an Arctic ocean free of ice for a few weeks or months is going to change the climate patterns in the No Hemisphere, probably in profound and unpredictable ways.

Keep in mind also that the highest use of electricity is in the late summer, just when any such calming effect is likely to kick in.

One more thing to keep in mind: in the act of melting, the ice cap significantly cools the water around it. Once the ice cap is gone, not only will it not reflect light, it's melting will no longer act too cool the surrounding water. This is likely to lead to (relative) super heating. We already saw areas last summer where water temps were 7+ degrees C (as I recall) above long-term averages.

You tend to be quite cagey in your answers, so let me ask straight out: Do you view the impending total melt of the ice cap, an event that hasn't happened since long before human civilization first started to develop, as on even of little consequence?


Considering that the poles spend some 163 days in the dark each year and that the elevation of the Greenland ice cap and the interior of Antarctica are as high as they are I don't see the total melt of the ice caps as more then a remote possibility.

From the CIA data site. Antarctica

Terrain: about 98% thick continental ice sheet and 2% barren rock, with average elevations between 2,000 and 4,000 meters; mountain ranges up to nearly 5,000 meters; ice-free coastal areas include parts of southern Victoria Land, Wilkes Land, the Antarctic Peninsula area, and parts of Ross Island on McMurdo Sound; glaciers form ice shelves along about half of the coastline, and floating ice shelves constitute 11% of the area of the continent
Elevation extremes: lowest point: Bentley Subglacial Trench -2,555 m
highest point: Vinson Massif 4,897 m
note: the lowest known land point in Antarctica is hidden in the Bentley Subglacial Trench; at its surface is the deepest ice yet discovered and the world's lowest elevation not under seawater

.
But that said even the melting around the edges and the reduction in summer ice cover on the arctic ocean that is being predicted and observed is more then enough to have adverse impacts on the environment and the human population.
But I think the more immediate problem is the worlds population and its uncontrolled growth. I expect that to come to a head and be resolved in a very unpleasant way which will make peak oil and global warming moot points sometime in the next twenty years or so.
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Re: Wind could supply enough power to meet US electricity needs

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 08 Apr 2009, 14:57:54

"the worlds population and its uncontrolled growth. I expect that to come to a head and be resolved in a very unpleasant way which will make peak oil and global warming moot points sometime in the next twenty years or so."

Well, we can certainly agree that these are fundamental problems, and really they drive everything else--no over-pop and uncontrolled economic growth, no GW, species extincion....

I also agree that total ice loss year round seems a rather remote possibility in this century but it has happened before that the Arctic was not only ice free but downright tropical. How is this possible? The wonderful GW and insulative properties of water vapor.
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Re: Wind could supply enough power to meet US electricity needs

Unread postby yesplease » Wed 08 Apr 2009, 15:17:38

VMarcHart wrote:Wind developer here. It will never happen in our lifetime. If this, if that, then we could this, and we could that, etc, blah-blah-blah, do your laundry during the windy hours, by an EV, vote for me, Earth hour, etc, etc.

I just started construction of a tiny 100-MW wind farm, and I'm thinking of adding it as the 13th labor of Hercules. A thousand gigawatts!?!? Please!!!
I doubt we'll ever see 100% wind since it'd be impractical, but I can see 20-40+% wind in our lifetime. Right now wind is growing at half a percent of grid output per year, and it could probably scale up to a percent plus in a half decade or so, barring of course another administration screwing with the PTC.

P.S. Good luck putting up that 100-MW wind farm by hand, alone, with a cold, after walking to work ten miles in the snow, Hercules! ;)
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Re: Wind could supply enough power to meet US electricity needs

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 09 Apr 2009, 05:53:18

dohboi wrote:"the worlds population and its uncontrolled growth. I expect that to come to a head and be resolved in a very unpleasant way which will make peak oil and global warming moot points sometime in the next twenty years or so."

Well, we can certainly agree that these are fundamental problems, and really they drive everything else--no over-pop and uncontrolled economic growth, no GW, species extincion....

I also agree that total ice loss year round seems a rather remote possibility in this century but it has happened before that the Arctic was not only ice free but downright tropical. How is this possible? The wonderful GW and insulative properties of water vapor.


I'm not sure of the plate tectonics timeline vs climate time line but I'm under the impression that Antarctica was north of where it is now when its climate was tropical. Was not most or all of the coal beds put down before the Americas broke off from Garwonda or whatever they call it? With things close to their present position I think ice ages and interglacials has been the norm.
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Re: Wind could supply enough power to meet US electricity needs

Unread postby Vogelzang » Thu 09 Apr 2009, 18:56:12

Peak wind won't come until at least 5 billion years from now.
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Re: Wind could supply enough power to meet US electricity needs

Unread postby pstarr » Thu 09 Apr 2009, 18:59:58

Vogelzang wrote:Peak wind won't come until at least 5 billion years from now.
Source?

You've been here 9 month and you are still a lonely little turd. Haven't made any friends yet?
Our great-great-grandparents burned wood and coal. Our grandparents burned oil. We burn natural gas. Our children will burn their furniture. :badgrin:
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Re: Wind could supply enough power to meet US electricity needs

Unread postby yesplease » Thu 09 Apr 2009, 19:43:43

pstarr wrote:You've been here 9 month and you are still a lonely little turd. Haven't made any friends yet?
Oh no, another post from pstarr with an ad hominem, run for the hills Vogelzang, before it's too late! ;)
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Re: Wind could supply enough power to meet US electricity needs

Unread postby VMarcHart » Fri 10 Apr 2009, 09:42:27

pstarr wrote:You've been here 9 month and you are still a lonely little turd. Haven't made any friends yet?
I thought attacks were against the CoC. Could a moderator please clarify this? Thanks.
On 9/29/08, cube wrote: "The Dow will drop to 4,000 within 2 years". The current tally is 239 bold predictions, 9 right, 96 wrong, 134 open. If you've heard here, it's probably wrong.
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Re: Wind could supply enough power to meet US electricity needs

Unread postby Graeme » Wed 15 Apr 2009, 23:03:53

Federal officials back wind energy 'superhighway'

The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission has approved incentives that could help a Michigan company build a 3,000-mile transmission "superhighway" to move wind-generated power out of the Midwest.

Novi, Mich.-based ITC Holdings Corp. filed its rate and incentives application in February. On Monday, FERC approved a 12.38 percent return on investment for the project, which is expected to cost $10 billion to $12 billion.

The "Green Power Express" would surge with 12,000 megawatts of wind-generated power. The extra-high voltage transmission lines would spread across the Dakotas, Minnesota, Iowa, Wisconsin, Illinois and Indiana to deliver wind power to Chicago and points east.


http://www.argusleader.com/article/20090415/NEWS/904150313/1001/news
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Re: Wind could supply enough power to meet US electricity needs

Unread postby TheAntiDoomer » Thu 16 Apr 2009, 07:45:25

I don't now whether to feel sorry for p4brains, or just make him a foe.
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Re: Wind could supply enough power to meet US electricity needs

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 27 Apr 2009, 00:40:02

Does anyone think that a comment like "peak wind won't come for at least five billion years" is anything other than inane and childish?
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Re: Wind could supply enough power to meet US electricity needs

Unread postby Cabrone » Mon 27 Apr 2009, 05:20:22

Vogelzang wrote:Peak wind won't come until at least 5 billion years from now.


Well if the scientists who wrote this book are correct it is more like 7 billion years - that's when the earth will fall into a bloated dying sun. Not that any life will see it, the ever heating sun will kill off the biosphere in 500 million -1 billion years (according to these guys anyway). Mars may be nice at that time though.

As for the original question the answer is yes, most definately it could but whether it will is a different question.

As someone who lives on a grossly overcrowded (although quite fertile) island about the size of florida I envy the potential renewable resource that the US has.

You have 2 huge coastlines which could supply you with wave\tidal\wind, a big wind corridor up the central plains, a potentially massive biomass resource and finally a whopping great solar resource down in the south west. I'd also like to add that to the North is a sparsely populated yet huge country with large hydro\biomass resource and to the south is a country with massive solar potential.

In terms of raw energy you are swamped in renewable resource - what are you waiting for?
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US wind power capacity up in '09

Unread postby yesplease » Tue 26 Jan 2010, 16:31:03

Reuters wrote:The combined power generating capacity of new U.S. wind turbines installed last year hit more than 9,900 megawatts, up from a gain of over 8,400 MW in the previous year.

Link.


Not only did wind power grow during the worst recession in over a half century, but it increased it's rate of growth by almost 20%. Pretty impressive IMO.
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Re: US wind power capacity up in '09

Unread postby Revi » Tue 26 Jan 2010, 19:08:03

I talked to a friend who is anti-windpower because he thinks it's too noisy. He knows about peak oil and is an environmentalist.

I think we are going to need all the wind power we can get and soon.

We have at least 5 new projects here in Maine.

I think we have the space and the wind to run a lot of our grid on wind and hydro, so we may be able to keep the lights on at least.
Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.
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Re: US wind power capacity up in '09

Unread postby shortonsense » Tue 26 Jan 2010, 19:40:14

Revi wrote:I talked to a friend who is anti-windpower because he thinks it's too noisy. He knows about peak oil and is an environmentalist.

I think we are going to need all the wind power we can get and soon.


I agree, primarily because of the coming electrification of transport which is finally being supported by the auto manufacturers. Until such economies of scale are realized,its difficult to think that a small manufacturer here or there can provide the sort of leverage needed to put the House of Saud out of business, long term.
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Re: US wind power capacity up in '09

Unread postby yesplease » Tue 26 Jan 2010, 22:26:40

Lots of EVs/PHEVs make wind power's market penetration much higher since they can provide ~8-12 hour windows for storage at home, and more if people start plugging in at home. Course, the DOE estimated we could hit ~300GW (~20% of generation) w/ modest improvements to transmission I don't think we'll need them to expand wind power until we get a few decades down the road.
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Re: US wind power capacity up in '09

Unread postby shortonsense » Tue 26 Jan 2010, 22:57:12

yesplease wrote:Course, the DOE estimated we could hit ~300GW (~20% of generation) w/ modest improvements to transmission I don't think we'll need them to expand wind power until we get a few decades down the road.


Have you seen some of these windfarms Yes?

I was tooling along south of Amarillo a few weeks back and ran into a huge windfarm down that'a way. Huge. Turbines off to the horizon. I remember years and years ago when I first saw the Mohave farms and thought they were pretty neat, nowadays, these projects are just huge. The people building them nowadays sure ain't thinkin small.

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Re: US wind power capacity up in '09

Unread postby TheDude » Tue 26 Jan 2010, 23:03:30

Cogito, ergo non satis bibivi
And let me tell you something: I dig your work.
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Re: US wind power capacity up in '09

Unread postby sjn » Tue 26 Jan 2010, 23:18:45


yesplease wrote:Not only did wind power grow during the worst recession in over a half century, but it increased it's rate of growth by almost 20%. Pretty impressive IMO.
That certainly doesn't look like a 20% increase in the rate of growth 2008-2009 for the US???
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Re: US wind power capacity up in '09

Unread postby TheAntiDoomer » Tue 26 Jan 2010, 23:32:30

[quote="TheDude"]Image

Eco-Economy Indicators - Wind Power | EPI[/quote

I think yespleases data is more up to date
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