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THE Transition Phase Thread Pt. 2 (merged)

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Transition towns

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 04 Jan 2010, 17:30:09

mos6507 wrote: When teamwork becomes necessary, we're all going to have to relearn the value of tolerance, and listening, and having a more open mind.

What I see starting here and with Nate's essay on TOD is this growing recognition that staying in your ideological ghetto, even a doomer one, is merely a BAU-style response.



Staying in my ideological ghetto just isn't possible where I live - I don't know a single other person with a similar worldview except maybe my husband. But it's possible to find something in common with most people, in my limited experience.
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Re: Transition towns

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 04 Jan 2010, 20:00:47

mos6507 wrote:
pstarr wrote:I went one direction and the nation went the other.


I'm sorry your little Moses routine didn't singlehandedly lead everyone to the promised land, pstarr. There's no chance that, maybe, your approach was in any way flawed? No, no. That couldn't be. It has to be a reflection of the sinners being irredeemable. If you and your cult of anonymized personality couldn't save us, then gosh darn it, nobody else can!
Moses? I don't part water. I change it into wine and drink it. Especially a fine California Cabernet or (if I am lucky this weekend) a Jeroboam of Amarone. With Dungeness Crabs and a humboldt grass-fed beef standing rib roast.

mos6507 wrote:You're kind of acting as the anti-shorty in this thread. Shorty doesn't see the need for transition towns because he doesn't see doom around the corner. You don't see the need for them because you think we're doomed (at least everywhere OTHER than your chosen sanctuary).
Do not misrepresent me. :evil: I am an anti-shorty everywhere, not just this thread! :P

But you, as usual, miss my points and seem to confuse cause/effect/correlation, and especially prescription and description. Just as I don't see faulty housing mortgages as the cause of peak oil and a world-wide financial crisis, I don't see Transition Towns as a solution to the current problem. But I have nothing against them and in fact see them as step in the right direction. We need Transition Countries(tm) No mere town is capable anymore of of independence from the national food system, energy grid, or import/export economy. It is laughable to suggest that some little town can turn inward and replace the global distributed manufacturing and support system. Where do prescription drugs, high tech engineered parts (for water distribution and treatment plants, electrical geneation and distribution systems, weaponry and ammo, etc) come from? Not some little backyard forge. How many 'transition towns' anywhere in this country even have a chance of supplying the salad course for dinner much less the 10,000 acres needed to feed even a tiny little town. (USDA--1 acre per person. I know. I know. With permaculture techniques you can feed a family in a cup of ear wax)

mos6507 wrote:You've made it known on multiple occasions that the only reason you're here is for sh*ts and giggles while the world collapses around you. So while you're a doomer, unlike Shorty, you're really verging on being just as much of a troller as he is with your attitude.
Give it up Mos. Look up what I have said here repeatedly (Breakfast in the barracks) I am not a doomer or a denialist, just a realist and I believe people will be taken care probably decently (even with a complete financial crash.)

mos6507 wrote:Frankly, if you are burnt out and want to jump ship, please do so, but don't interfere with other people trying to take the wheel.
Dramatic stuff. But really?
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Re: Transition towns

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 04 Jan 2010, 20:03:11

mos6507 wrote:
pstarr wrote:
pstarr wrote:But yes BAU fosters isolation. After all, you are much more useful to the capitalist owners when you do not form buying cooperatives, unions, etc. To share goods and property is a revolutionary act and will be crushed with all the might of the world's strongest military/industrial complex.


Pstarr, I want you to read what you just wrote here. It's boilerplate fatalistic doomer ranting.



I guess I'm wondering what the likelihood is the military/industrial complex will crush the Transition Town movement. I know it is a popular idea that TPTB give a poop what we do, are watching our every move, and lying in wait to stop us from living as we choose. So far, I haven't seen a lot of that personally, that is, I've never been stopped from doing anything I want to do. My conclusion is, TPTB don't give a rat's ass about what I do. BUT - I am not doing it in a group, nor am I doing it in a flamboyantly public manner, as the Transition Town movement is obviously public. I tend to think change is more likely if we scoot along under the radar, which you can't do with a Movement.

When should we expect the Transition Movement to be crushed or co-opted by TPTB? Is this a valid concern, or is it something we shouldn't be worrying about?
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Re: Transition towns

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 04 Jan 2010, 20:06:55

pstarr wrote:I have nothing against them and in fact see them as step in the right direction.



Then what are you guys arguing about???? 8O
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Re: Transition towns

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 04 Jan 2010, 20:19:35

Ludi wrote:
mos6507 wrote:
pstarr wrote:
pstarr wrote:But yes BAU fosters isolation. After all, you are much more useful to the capitalist owners when you do not form buying cooperatives, unions, etc. To share goods and property is a revolutionary act and will be crushed with all the might of the world's strongest military/industrial complex.


Pstarr, I want you to read what you just wrote here. It's boilerplate fatalistic doomer ranting.



I guess I'm wondering what the likelihood is the military/industrial complex will crush the Transition Town movement. I know it is a popular idea that TPTB give a poop what we do, are watching our every move, and lying in wait to stop us from living as we choose. So far, I haven't seen a lot of that personally, that is, I've never been stopped from doing anything I want to do. My conclusion is, TPTB don't give a rat's ass about what I do. BUT - I am not doing it in a group, nor am I doing it in a flamboyantly public manner, as the Transition Town movement is obviously public. I tend to think change is more likely if we scoot along under the radar, which you can't do with a Movement.

When should we expect the Transition Movement to be crushed or co-opted by TPTB? Is this a valid concern, or is it something we shouldn't be worrying about?
Did I say that? I don't remember saying that.

I don't seriously believe the US military gives a damn whether a few good-intentioned liberals or wonkie post-tech libertarians meet at the local Grange or high school library meeting room to discuss post-peak community, localvorism, or even the need for bike lanes (personally I don't work to promote the bike culture as I am confident that all roads will soon enough become bike lanes. Better stock on on nobbies now.)

Now, on the other hand, if we were to demand our land back from the likes of Archer Daniel Midland, Cargill, and the biofools crowd, etc. I imagine there would be a nasty response. But we are not comfortable going there are we?
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Re: Transition towns

Unread postby Revi » Mon 04 Jan 2010, 20:21:28

Ludi wrote:I guess I'm wondering what the likelihood is the military/industrial complex will crush the Transition Town movement. I know it is a popular idea that TPTB give a poop what we do, are watching our every move, and lying in wait to stop us from living as we choose. So far, I haven't seen a lot of that personally, that is, I've never been stopped from doing anything I want to do. My conclusion is, TPTB don't give a rat's ass about what I do. BUT - I am not doing it in a group, nor am I doing it in a flamboyantly public manner, as the Transition Town movement is obviously public. I tend to think change is more likely if we scoot along under the radar, which you can't do with a Movement.

When should we expect the Transition Movement to be crushed or co-opted by TPTB? Is this a valid concern, or is it something we shouldn't be worrying about?


I don't think we have to worry about that kind of thing yet. We had one Transition Town celebrate a year since it's great unleashing.

They have been at it longer in England, but I would say that the movement is in its infancy and presents no threat to TPTB.

Maybe when we've been around a while, but that's when we build a bridge to local government.

This isn't supposed to take anything over, just get people ready for what's coming.
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Re: Transition towns

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 04 Jan 2010, 20:25:19

pstarr wrote:Now, on the other hand, if we were to demand our land back from the likes of Archer Daniel Midland, Cargill, and the biofools crowd, etc. I imagine there would be a nasty response. But we are not comfortable going there are we?



I don't need land from them, so I don't have much of an opinion, personally. If folks want to buy back land from ADM, more power to them. Or "demand it back" whatever.

Maybe start another thread on that subject, it is off-topic here. I'll try to generate an opinion. It's not a matter of being comfortable or uncomfortable about the subject, for me, anyway. If you aren't comfortable with it, maybe you shouldn't bring it up? Or who do you mean by "we"?
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Re: Transition towns

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 04 Jan 2010, 20:31:39

Ludi wrote:
pstarr wrote:Now, on the other hand, if we were to demand our land back from the likes of Archer Daniel Midland, Cargill, and the biofools crowd, etc. I imagine there would be a nasty response. But we are not comfortable going there are we?



I don't need land from them, so I don't have much of an opinion, personally. If folks want to buy back land from ADM, more power to them. Or "demand it back" whatever.
You don't need land from them? I thought your little piece of hardscrabble texas hard-pan was too tough to farm.

Ludi wrote:Maybe start another thread on that subject, it is off-topic here. I'll try to generate an opinion. It's not a matter of being comfortable or uncomfortable about the subject, for me, anyway. If you aren't comfortable with it, maybe you shouldn't bring it up? Or who do you mean by "we"?
Another thread? You asking me to leave. Come on. I am the only one on this forum who has actually put his money, mouth, time, energy, and heart into this so-called transition town movement. I know more, care more and have studied and learned more about it than anyone at Peakoil and if you don't like the truth then that is your problem. But I don't like being invited to leave.
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Re: Transition towns

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 04 Jan 2010, 20:32:48

Revi wrote:Maybe when we've been around a while, but that's when we build a bridge to local government.

This isn't supposed to take anything over, just get people ready for what's coming.


It seems it might bother the Chamber of Commerce if it poses any threat whatsoever to the status quo and bringing growth and business to the town.

Seems like growth would be antithetical to the transition movement, if towns hope to be self-sustaining at all. Chamber of Clowns seem to always want to grow towns beyond the carrying capacity of the locale. :(
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Re: Transition towns

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 04 Jan 2010, 20:34:00

pstarr wrote:Another thread? You asking me to leave. Come on. I am the only one on this forum who has actually put his money, mouth, time, energy, and heart into this so-called transition town movement. I know more, care more and have studied and learned more about it than anyone at Peakoil and if you don't like the truth then that is your problem. But I don't like being invited to leave.



Don't be an ass. :razz:

Interested to know what truth you think I don't like. We can talk about anything you want. Go for it.
Last edited by Ludi on Mon 04 Jan 2010, 20:39:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Transition towns

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 04 Jan 2010, 20:35:06

pstarr wrote:You don't need land from them? I thought your little piece of hardscrabble texas hard-pan was too tough to farm.



I'm not interested in "farming."

There's no ADM land anywhere near here that I know of. I have no interest in moving. :)

Incidentally, my land isn't "hard pan." Ask Pops about my land. :)
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Re: Transition towns

Unread postby mos6507 » Mon 04 Jan 2010, 20:45:05

pstarr wrote:I believe people will be taken care probably decently (even with a complete financial crash.)


Oh, I guess we have nothing to worry about, then. Thanks for the assurances.
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Re: Transition towns

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 04 Jan 2010, 20:45:13

Ludi. I am not am not just an ass. :cry: I have body parts and a heart :) and I can love [smilie=5grouphug.gif]
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Re: Transition towns

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 04 Jan 2010, 20:47:46

pstarr wrote:Ludi. I am not am not just an ass. :cry: I have body parts and a heart :) and I can love [smilie=5grouphug.gif]



Well good, then stop acting like just an ass. :)

Seriously, I guess I can understand being annoyed that I suggested a separate thread for a relevant topic, but you are making jerk-like comments - that I "don't like" some "truth" you're promoting. When you know for a fact I have agreed with you for years.
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Re: Transition towns

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 04 Jan 2010, 20:48:29

mos6507 wrote:
pstarr wrote:I believe people will be taken care probably decently (even with a complete financial crash.)


Oh, I guess we have nothing to worry about, then. Thanks for the assurances.

It depends on what you consider 'nothing.' Living in a suburban-shopping-ghetto is a problem for many, but not the end of the world for most. I personally can't stand the consumer-life style. It sickens me. So I used to get a lot of stomach aches.
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Re: Transition towns

Unread postby mos6507 » Mon 04 Jan 2010, 20:51:22

pstarr wrote:I am the only one on this forum who has actually put his money, mouth, time, energy, and heart into this so-called transition town movement. I know more, care more and have studied and learned more about it than anyone at Peakoil and if you don't like the truth then that is your problem. But I don't like being invited to leave.


If you want to avoid being called a troll, then do something more useful than brag about your credentials and dis people who are trying to make a difference.
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Re: Transition towns

Unread postby Ludi » Mon 04 Jan 2010, 20:52:32

Revi, what steps is your town taking to make sure there's enough land and resources to support the population, and is no-growth part of the Transition Town movement? Or do some of the towns actually need growth to become viable communities in the future (for instance, current population mostly old)?
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Re: Transition towns

Unread postby Revi » Tue 05 Jan 2010, 08:45:19

We haven't grown much in the past 10 years. Our population actually is down a bit from the early 2000's. Maine is a tough place to be and people move out as fast as they move in.

We have a bunch of young farmers who have moved in, however. They have bought old farms and gotten them back into shape. The farmer's market is growing and people are working on reviving the downtown area of our town.

As a part of the town's comprehensive plan we call the area north of town (with the good land) an agricultural area, and reccomended conservation of it.

Some of those young farmers are involved with the Transition movement, so I hope we get some kind of a designation for that part of the town.

Here's one of them and their website:

http://www.onedropfarm.com/

Here's another young farmer that has a fantastic farm and a beautiful website:

http://www.grasslandorganicfarm.com/
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Re: Transition towns

Unread postby mos6507 » Tue 05 Jan 2010, 09:25:41

BTW, Richard Heinberg, in an article I'm sure everone has already read, is also retreating from his top-down emphasis.

Nevertheless, this writer is finally convinced that, with whatever energies for positive change may be available to us, we are likely to accomplish the most by working locally and on a small scale, while sharing information about successes and failures as widely as possible.


You see a pattern here?
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Re: Transition towns

Unread postby Ludi » Tue 05 Jan 2010, 13:09:34

Revi wrote:We have a bunch of young farmers who have moved in, however. They have bought old farms and gotten them back into shape. The farmer's market is growing and people are working on reviving the downtown area of our town.



That's so fantastic!

I used to be encouraged by our neighbors up the road who are trying a small mixed dairy farm, but they have overstocked their land by about 10x carrying capacity, and it's becoming a desert. :( This whole area used to be dairies, but the farms were much larger than their place (they have about 30 acres, I think, and are stocked for about 150 - 200 acres 8O )
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