[Ludi]

I am unplugging from this medium again for a couple of months. No internet where I am heading.

That's quite a carbon footprint you have.

Have fun burning the planet!

[Revi]

We'll see how far transition towns get us. We're headed into uncharted territory.

It's an idea of how to deal with what's coming in a more organized way.

I agree, however that most of us are going to be caught unaware.

Even those of us who know some of what's going on don't know what to do most of the time. Will there be inflation or deflation in 2010?

I think Transition is a bit like admitting that we can't do much at a state or national level, so it's time to focus on our towns.

[Ludi]

who know some of what's going on don't know what to do most of the time. Will there be inflation or deflation in 2010?

Removing oneself as much as possible from the system (by engaging in the Sharing or Gift Economy) would mostly solve concern over those two possibilities. It seems quite possible to confidently walk away from the system no matter what might happen, if one has made the resolve to do so. Following resolve with action is the hard part.

[Revi]

I agree, but it's hard to remove myself from the economic system. We have a lot of our home economy in the gift/barter system, but the town wants cash for taxes and we are still working. I could see how we could slip into an almost cash free economy as things get worse though.

I think a local currency could become very useful in the advent of hyperinflation. You could still use your "localbucks" to get a haircut or a pound of squash, even if the national currency has lost it's usefulness.

[Ludi]

Yes, property taxes do require one to make some money, but it's generally a pretty small amount compared to what's needed for, say, health insurance.

I'm going to try to reduce my need to earn still further this year, but there's still some things I need to buy to improve the home place.

[shortonsense]

We'll see how far transition towns get us. We're headed into uncharted territory.

It's an idea of how to deal with what's coming in a more organized way.

Do you realize the size of the implication you have inserted into this statement, possibly on purpose, possibly not?

What is coming?

The entire world effectively revolves around the answer to that question. I recognize what some of the common beliefs are in this particular forum as the answer to that question....I also can read back through the archives and determine what was the expected answer to that question no more than a few years back.

The answer has changed...even around here.

And one of the possible answers is...nothing. Nothing is coming. Certainly our post peak world, now +5, hasn't worked out quite as well as imagined.

I agree, however that most of us are going to be caught unaware.

I think Transition is a bit like admitting that we can't do much at a state or national level, so it's time to focus on our towns.

I think Transition is similar to the communes of the 60's, where unhappiness, expressed more against political events then, which led people to the same desire to leave the old, established world behind in the hopes that the grass is greener elsewhere.

I liked communes back in the 60's and 70's, have an Uncle who still participates. Great guy. If Transition towns make people happy, I say do it! How about a PO.com transition town on a dispersed basis? Like distributed computing done by SETI, we could sign up members, put aside a little forum where they could talk about how to educate the unwashed masses, what they've done during the week, measure the improvement in their CO2 emissions, or lack thereof? Keep score, see who is "transitioning" the best? Sort of like what Peakoiler did with his gasoline and heating/cooling spreadsheets? Or how Pup runs the oil price thread? Declare a winner each year, Most improved, Most improvement by a Newby, Most original idea to stop emitting CO2?

[Revi]

SOS, I am just now beginning to understand your argument. You think that because most people you see around you aren't living any different that nothing is happening. From your suburb you can't see anything, therefore nothing has happened and nothing will happen.

What about those millions of people who have lost their houses due to foreclosure?

Countries like Zimbabwe and even Iceland which are suffering due to economic meltdown.

The crash of the financial markets which was held up by trillions of dollars.

The recession which even by official numbers is at 10% of Americans out of work.

The bankruptcy and bail out of car companies, huge brokerage houses, banks, Freddie and Fannie Mac.

The increasing lines at the soup kitchens.

Those people on the other side of town with the will work for food signs.

The general feeling of unease.

Aren't these symptoms of something wrong?

Or are they business as usual?

I think you are right. If you think all these things are baloney, then Transition Towns is a dumb idea.

[shortonsense]

SOS, I am just now beginning to understand your argument. You think that because most people you see around you aren't living any different that nothing is happening. From your suburb you can't see anything, therefore nothing has happened and nothing will happen.

In the past 6 months I've traveled to or through 18 individual states, some more than once, and the nations capital. Are you supposing that this much rumored Doom is hiding in the other 32?

What about those millions of people who have lost their houses due to foreclosure?

<snip big list of things which usually happen during bad economic times, aren't oil related, and if taken out of context correctly, can be confused by some with Doom>

You use facts out of context. Peak oil is not about bad mortgages from ignorant consumers, the derivatives market, currency speculation by Icelanders or poor political leadership in Zimbabwe. Are your examples really good ones of bad behavior, idiot economics and the natural consequences of such stupid behavior? Sure.

But it ain't Doom. It ain't even enough to JUSTIFY a Transition Town, let alone require it. Big chunks of this country are paying their bills, keeping the unemployment in Transition Town Boulder at <7%, moving to Texas and getting work, I realize that there are also pockets hit hard by unemployment ( Rust Belt ), foreclosures ( Las Vegas ), idiot financial policy ( California ), and people leaving in droves ( Florida and California ).

Okay...so things, they sure stink compared to the roaring 2005's. Good. Maybe the next idiot driven bubble will take longer to spin up because everyone is getting a good clean look at what happens afterwards. It still ain't Doom.

I tell you what. I am going to drive right across the middle of the country next week. Utah to Pennsylvania. List a single, favorite county somewhere between, say, Green River, Utah and Johnstown Pennsylvania along the I70 corridor. I will personally stop into the county of your choice, and investigate the horrendous nature of your Doom facts on that particular county.

[Ibon]

Some of you may read the attached campfire discussion on The Oil Drum and find it very relevant to the discourse on this thread. I find it quite remarkable.

http://campfire.theoildrum.com/node/6072#comments_top

[shortonsense]

Some of you may read the attached campfire discussion on The Oil Drum and find it very relevant to the discourse on this thread. I find it quite remarkable.

http://campfire.theoildrum.com/node/6072#comments_top

Nate has my vote for High Priest of Post Peak Concepts, perhaps the title of Global Transition Town Mayor?

He, as the peak oil movement in general appears to have done, is moving past peak oil into what was probably a fundamental driver of his thinking before PO awareness came along, eco this, green that being a main one I've noticed.

It was apparent at last years ASPO meeting as well....PO as a boogie man not having worked out, the entire movement appears to be shifting into a more eco/green angle, downplaying the old fire and brimstone in favor of warm fuzzy eco-issues.

Transition towns are a natural offshoot of just such a shift.

[Ludi]

downplaying the old fire and brimstone in favor of warm fuzzy eco-issues.

Warm and fuzzy might be a better sell. Time will tell.

Maybe we can combine warm and fuzzy with fire and brimstone.

[Newfie]

Just an idea here, but might our time and effort be better spent in figuring out how to start a transition town group?

Maybe those of you who have some experience can suggest some resources.

I think it would be more conducive of the whole TT concept to try to work in a positive direction. Which would mean having sufficient discipline to not wander off track.

I'm pretty sure we are not convincing anyone of anything by bickering here.

[Ludi]

Just an idea here, but might our time and effort be better spent in figuring out how to start a transition town group?

You can join your state or local transition group on the internets, and host meetings in meatspace. I've joined but not tried a meeting yet.

http://www.transitionus.org/

[Newfie]

Thanks

[shortonsense]

Just an idea here, but might our time and effort be better spent in figuring out how to start a transition town group?

Maybe those of you who have some experience can suggest some resources.

I think it would be more conducive of the whole TT concept to try to work in a positive direction. Which would mean having sufficient discipline to not wander off track.

I'm pretty sure we are not convincing anyone of anything by bickering here.

I suggested in this very thread the idea that we start our own, including an ability to score our efforts to determine their effectiveness. Certainly if one only wants to see bickering, that is easy enough to find, but certainly other ideas right down the same line of thinking you suggest have been obviously presented as well.

[Ludi]

I suggested in this very thread the idea that we start our own,

We'd have to move to the same town to start a Transition Town group together. I don't live in a town and don't especially feel like moving to one.

[shortonsense]

We'd have to move to the same town to start a Transition Town group together. I don't live in a town and don't especially feel like moving to one.

I don't believe we literally need our own town, our "townliness" can be the group camaraderie we display here on a daily basis!

We can agree to band together, internet hobbyists via electronic social networking site like this one, and become an electronic town! We can tell raucous stories of our carbon non-emissions, post pictures of our gardens, heck, maybe this already exists in the Planning Forums!! A couple of white toga's, the creation of a secret handshake should we ever meet in public, and PRESTO!!

One big happy religion family!

[shortonsense]

When you care to stop the trolling, please come back with your ideas on how we can preserve the biodiversity of heirloom seeds that are under threat from modern agriculture, how we can better preserve our water resources, our soil etc. Until then, button it. You're getting tedious.

I was trolling no one. This thread is about transition towns, not seeds or the success of modern agriculture which have thwarted prior Malthusian or Erhlichian claims, and I have advocated we start our own, electronic style one. If the references I have provided to Transition Town screed had even mentioned saving someone's seeds, it might be appropriate for this thread. They didn't. Are you saying they did, or are you venturing off topic for some other reason?

[shortonsense]

Not specifically - you just don't belong here.

Are you kidding? Resource depletion is a serious issue...peak oil is about resource depletion of a particularly important one. Just because I don't assign the same level of confidence to some of the more hypothetical tag along scenario's shouldn't invalidate my resource depletion concerns.

Unless you're being paid by the post you're wasting yours and others time,your sarcastic repetiive contributions are boring. Please go away - best transition town for you would be Coventry!

I made a perfectly valid comment on forming electronic transition towns. The idea has only recently come upon me by watching my daughters interaction with the rest of the world through the internet and her phone, a concept alien to me. I suggested a counterpart here. It is a new idea, and I have not mentioned it elsewhere, having only come upon it recently myself. While I might admit to attempts at levity during light banter related to the robes and prerequisite beliefs of the proper transition town mentality, the electronic idea contained no sarcasm whatsoever.

You see, it appears to be dogma that such an idea has value. Until you quantify the actual savings by such activity, as I have advocated through a scoring system, it is impossible to realize any value from the good intentions of those who defend the idea, but certainly aren't about to contribute a single BTU of effort into such an exercise.

For example, more than a few occasionally proclaim, "look! I'm off to doomsteading!" or "I'm off to plant tree's and garden!" and yet no quantification as to the usefulness of such activity within the two lenses referenced of Transition Town dogma ( peak oil and climate change ) has been done except by PeakOiler, as best I can tell.

Who emits less CO2? He who flies to an exotic land and builds a doomstead, or he who simply flies less this year than last? Once the quantification begins, it is easier to determine who is really walking the walk, and who is simply outfitting their vacation home with a garden for "just in case".

[mos6507]

I don't live in a town and don't especially feel like moving to one.

It's only called Transition Towns. It doesn't literally mean town. Some transition efforts like up in Vermont are in very sparsely populated areas. Others are trying to tackle the big city. Obviously both extremes in population density have their challenges, but there is a concerted effort being made to address them.