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The Telecommuting Thread

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: The Telecommuting Thread

Unread postby ennui2 » Sat 12 Dec 2015, 10:38:43

Newfie wrote:For the balance it is filling a psychological need to feel like you are contributing to the hive.


I agree that people (especially men) derive a lot of their sense of self-worth from their job. If they don't have a job, then they can feel purposeless. I should know since I went on two sabbaticals. I had to frame them as career shifts (even though I knew the shift might not happen) in order to navigate through social situations due to the stigma of not working, regardless of whether I had financial problems or not (which I didn't, due to my nestegg.)

I also agree that there is a social component of work. When you telecommute, you don't get to really socialize with your coworkers and it can feel isolating. Since people largely don't hang out with friends anymore and rely on Facebook likes, coworker time (like during lunchbreak) might be the only real face-time you have. It sure is for me.

But (and this is a big but) this is a side topic. I doubt the above issues factor prominently in managerial decisions regarding telecommuting.

And for all the benefits of workers driving in, there are just about as many downsides, like road-rage and lost productivity and personal gas bills from driving.

I mean, do people really love their coworkers enough that they would voluntarily put up with this bullshit just to shoot the shit with them around the water-cooler?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfipAgNRDx0

No. If they could opt-out, they would. I've become a fan of classical music in the last few years for purely functional purposes, to take the edge off the road-rage.

Newfie wrote:I don't think there is a grand conspiracy, but our consumptive economic system is ingrained into our thinking.


But this statement is vague to the point of uselessness.

It does nothing to better illustrate anything related to telecommuting and cultural inertia. It's just a rhetorical 2x4 swung at BAU. It really doesn't say anything.

Newfie wrote:Yea, jobs make us feel worthwhile. In that way they are needed. If we cut out all the nonsense jobs we would crash the economy.


And now you are falling back onto the royal "we", as if the entire system is one big hive-mind that has some sort of deliberate consciousness.

It doesn't.

There is no "we" who is deciding "yep, we need burger flippers downtown, so there shalt not be telecommuting".

Newfie wrote:Adapting a different wealth distribution system would help.


Newfie, the world is on the precipice of big changes, and you don't have to be a doomer to be a little anxious about where this is headed.

Things have already changed a great deal since hit-pieces like End of Suburbia framed anti-BAU sentiment among doomers.

Everything I told you about automation increasingly making more and more classes of work obsolete is part of that. The current report about the shrinking middle-class is part of it. There is a LOT of discussion about the endgame of all this.

But look at the larger tableau of history. The Communist manifesto was written only at the dawn of the industrial revolution. Think of how much manual labor was needed to sustain things during, let's say, the gilded age.

Sure, you can talk about China being the slave labor of the 21st century, but how long is that going to last?

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/54 ... th-robots/

We've already seen manufacturing collapse in the US. What will China do with its displaced workers?

More importantly, there's a philosophical question here. Is having "a job" more important than having a meaningful job? These workers about to be displaced are among those who burn out and commit suicide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

So if you're looking for something to bash, look a little deeper. Should we feel compassionate and try to make sure that high-school dropouts who never made anything of their life have some minimal job like a burger flipper or a grocery store bagger and decry automation? Or should we aspire to raise these people's game and give them something more meaningful to do with their life than say "do you want fries with that?"

Again, this goes way beyond telecommuting and into politics and social engineering.
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Re: The Telecommuting Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 13 Dec 2015, 19:28:41

I think you got me confused with those voices in your head. Don't let me disrupt the conversation, carry on.
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Re: The Telecommuting Thread

Unread postby Pops » Mon 14 Dec 2015, 10:36:57

Anyone else have experience with telecommuting or just plain old earning from home?
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: The Telecommuting Thread

Unread postby Pops » Mon 14 Dec 2015, 13:53:07

Ah, good point, there is still the need to press the flesh. Clients/customers like to think they are important and get personal attention.

This is a big problem with the idea o9f freelance sites. They are good for the client who knows what they want, knows how it needs to happen and is looking for the cheapest bid. I have gotten some few jobs there but almost all were from someone who needed handholding and felt comfortable with someone relatively "local" meaning US. Otherwise there is just no reason to try to compete with a Bangladeshi, might as well pick cans from the roadside.

So yeah, having a representative is important if you need to earn more than the global basement wage.
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Re: The Telecommuting Thread

Unread postby furrybill » Mon 14 Dec 2015, 15:50:08

I've been working from home for about 10 years. I started about a year or two after working for a large bank in Boston. My manager was in another city so it didn't seem to make sense to go in, especially with a 1.5-2 hour commute each way. I found I ended up spending more time at work AND had more time for myself, best of both worlds. You save a ton of money and your employer gets more time for their money.

Eventually the bank itself decided telecommuting was a good idea because they could empty out office buildings in downtown Boston and other cities and save on real estate costs. They went so far at one point as to volunteer packages involving getting you a fax, shredder, even office furniture.

[Course, that's also the same time they decided to try to offshore 75% of their personnel, an effort still going on.]

But they've also reversed course at times, depending on the manager. Some people think they can't effectively manage people unless they're looking over their shoulder all the time. Antiquated management style if you ask me. In my case I left the bank and found out 6 months later that everyone who was telecommuting was offered the option to move to the HQ city or leave. They lost a lot of good people that way - stupid.

I do miss the social aspects of work, but in reality have more time for socialising outside of work, so no problem. I love the money I save. I once got an offer from a local insurance company headquartered 22 miles away. I think I calculated that it was around $9,000/year counting driving, clothes, meals, etc. They would have had to pay me $15,000 more than I was making at the time just for me to break even!

This type of work may not be for everyone. You have to be able to discipline yourself, stay focused on deliverables. But if you can its great to have so much control over your time. During lulls I can go out and work in the orchard or split wood or do laundry. Definitely a plus for quality of life.

From the point of view of peak oil and global warming its a no-brainer as everyone reading this knows. So much less driving for one thing. Another is the reduction in office space needed. The only reason millions more people aren't doing it is because of insecure idiots who think management = "under my thumb".
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Re: The Telecommuting Thread

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 14 Dec 2015, 17:01:10

At HP, those of us who had a few spare minutes between online meetings would first take a bio break, refill the coffee cup, and dial into the next meeting 8 minutes early (because the Microsoft Lync software was configured to first verbally chastise you and then hang up if you were 9 or more minutes early). These 8-minute "pre-meetings" were intended to be and often were used to coordinate agenda changes, but in the absence of such business we often shot the bull about typical "water cooler" topics.

I would point out that although I valued such times and often participated, it was unlike an actual water cooler conversation in one regard - management was capable of and probably did eavesdrop undetectably on such conversations - and the associated chat sessions were retained in your Outlook Mail for 90 days before archiving. I mention this because some employees simply would not act as if these things were possible.

Just as in real life in an office - you say something unwise, and word sometimes gets around. The electronic media makes such things easy and undetectable, while presenting you with a list of online meeting participants that only a fool would believe.
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Re: The Telecommuting Thread

Unread postby Pops » Mon 14 Dec 2015, 17:13:20

furrybill wrote:The only reason millions more people aren't doing it is because of insecure idiots who think management = "under my thumb".

Or maybe they understand that their only reason for drawing a paycheck is perpetuating the notion that their thumbs are indispensable.

Can't overlook middle management's perspective, if people can work self-directed, from home no less, what good are middle managers?

But ditto buyers of freelance work. They will to a person say that the fawning of the new sales rep, the nice lunch, the bottle of wine had nothing to do with their decision to kick you under the cyber bus.

But LOL

Freelancers need a representative and RemoteLancers even more so.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
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Re: The Telecommuting Thread

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 14 Dec 2015, 20:19:27

My experience is a lot depends upon the type of work. Some work I do is fine for telcommuting. But other work really requires my presence, mostly to make sure other folks are talking and sharing. But also simply to observe the physical process, document existing conditions, oversee construction.

It's a mix.

My company will, when an office gets to about 3 or 4 people, close the office and tell them to work from home or go elsewhere. With no input from the employees managers. :-x
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Re: The Telecommuting Thread

Unread postby GoghGoner » Tue 15 Dec 2015, 16:52:14

I haven't been in the office since last Wednesday but usually only work from home one day per week (that's the official policy). It has been two years since they started the policy. I have had a cold the last few days and I don't have to take time off work. Commuting takes a lot of energy when you have a low-grade fever but laying on the couch and coding doesn't take much energy at all.

I have looked at freelance coding websites and have not tried to find work on them, yet. If we are moving to a global workforce, developed country telecommuters are going to be living under a bridge.

Also, it is not completely free to work from home. Most people would adjust the thermostat before leaving home and save quite a bit of money, not much compared to automobile expenses but it isn't a completely free lunch either.
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Re: The Telecommuting Thread

Unread postby ennui2 » Tue 15 Dec 2015, 20:58:17

pstarr wrote:I suspect that if we had been in the office, playing politics, things would have played out differently. Perhaps because we made no friends in the office we were at a disadvantage?


I've been both a benefactor and victim of this sort of favoritism. It's part of the career experience. By and large, I feel IT work is more of a meritocracy than other industries. I'm glad I didn't enter Film/TV, for instance.

I also don't question the idea of the zero-sum-game, that everything could be offshored to the lowest bidder. It's up to everyone to try to make themselves indispensable at work. If you're working for a boss who only sees labor as dollars and cents then offshoring will trump telecommuting. But in my experience, the timezone, communication, and culture barriers are a hidden cost that always makes management regret going that route. When you really get embedded in a job you develop a domain knowledge that can't easily be replaced. If you're in a line of work that is easily automated or taught to newbies, then you're at the most risk. There is an inherent conflict of interest between what labor wants (to earn money) and what employers want (to save overhead). You have to accept it and not cling to the idea that employees are ever really out to make your white-picket-fence dreams come true. They're there for you only as long as they feel they can get more benefit from employing you than someone else (or eliminating your job completely).

Newfie wrote:I think you got me confused with those voices in your head. Don't let me disrupt the conversation, carry on.


Translation = I have no further rebuttals, but can't bring myself to admit it, so here come the personal insults.
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