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The Stark Realities of Baked-In Catastrophes

Re: The Stark Realities of Baked-In Catastrophes

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 28 Jun 2017, 22:13:13

Subjectivist wrote:
You make several errors and faulty assumptions in the quote above.



No doubt on the specifics, but I stand by the general points.
Yes, the bible is full of profound wisdom. Most religious folks that follow this book seem to lose a sense of playfulness and become so very earnest and always fall back to it regarding all questions. It becomes their exclusive road map. I don't like much discussing religion or the bible with religious folks for this reason.

No thanks. I want to stay right there were I was as a 12 year old trying to fathom infinity and me and my buddies just drifted off to sleep one after another as that question hung in the air. :)
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Re: The Stark Realities of Baked-In Catastrophes

Unread postby efarmer » Thu 29 Jun 2017, 00:08:13

A perfectly formed thread title to get attention, +0.00% Satire (admirable copy!)
First, the known factors and reality cited piece, and then a sizzling back and forth
series of volleys, and a barn burner of a saga of the big dogs sinking virtual
canines and ripping chunks of virtual hiney flesh from their advesarial avatars.

I started at the end here and couldn't tell what it was started
about, so I scanned back to the start. Pro intro and start up by
Tanada, citing of article, and then , well I guess I never saw it
in person, but the woodpeckers were having duels with their
beaks. Birds were scoring at will, other birds had their eyes
pecked out and were still pecking blindly, and some good
wifts came through from time to time to blow the stink out.
An image of polarized woodpeckers on the Jerry Springer
Show beating each other with folding chairs also came to mind.

Then it hit me, what if the people who go out and dance, or
surf, or swim, or walk around trails, (you know the smiley faces),
set up threads like this, then freed of all the people wrapped up
in this kind of stuff in their known peers without someone there to
remind them of peril, mortality,and spoil a sweet moment
I encourage you and I to grab one at every possible chance.

I fear for my avatar, he is just staring to slide on the peak of
things, and then a folding chair connects to his greased buns like
Springer hired a major league batting rated Hillbilly to work the folding
chairs in the fight segment of the show.
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Re: The Stark Realities of Baked-In Catastrophes

Unread postby careinke » Thu 29 Jun 2017, 02:12:27

Cog wrote:@Newfie

I have seen no evidence that there exists any other beings in the universe with as much intelligence as humans. Furthermore, I have seen no evidence that even life exists anywhere else besides the planet Earth. Bring forth the facts of a contrary position.

They said the same thing about black swans. Black swans are impossible because no one had seen one. But there were black swans.
Cliff (Start a rEVOLution, grow a garden)
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Re: The Stark Realities of Baked-In Catastrophes

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 29 Jun 2017, 04:16:01

Ibon, thanks for the reply. I also, am attuned to the reality that this question or questions need to be addressed in a light hearted manner. Yet, many of us if not all are naturally curious as the questions pertain to the underlying reality of the world and Universe we live in. So, yes these questions are unknowable. Those who like to sound certain are trying ultimately to convince themselves. I for one simply believe in God because I admit it bestows upon me a certain level of comfort. And because it provides for me a more rationale possible answer about how and why the Universe came to be then simply a mechanistic cause and effect scenario. I have respect for the views of Subjectivist, because they merit respect in so much as his opinion is no more or less "correct" than mine or anybody else. It is just a fun mental exercise at the end of the day that allows our mind to wander from the daily more mundane yet pertinent questions of a particular day.
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Re: The Stark Realities of Baked-In Catastrophes

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 30 Jun 2017, 01:32:55

"It is just a fun mental ..."

Soooo, does that make you a 'Fun duh Mentalist'?

I'm with Buddha...the whole theological issue is mostly beside the point. We have lots of issues of human and other suffering that need immediate attention. It is not clear that more discussions of numbers of angels on pin head will help in dealing with any of that. (I say that knowing that the angels...meme is a gross caricature of Medieval philosophy...but it's still a fun image! :-D )

But....shouldn't we at least be trying to kinda sorta be getting back on some kinda main topic again?

Who's runnin' this madhouse anyway??? 8)

(Ooops, does that get us back into theological discussions again!? :lol: :lol: )
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True Jihad, the internal one.....

Unread postby Whitefang » Fri 30 Jun 2017, 06:11:06

To deal with the issue of breaking our perception is a central aspect of humanity, one has only to stop talking to oneself to see this world we speak of is a mirage, a description of something real around us.
To deal with and explore the unknown one needs energy, personal power and the way to get it is by saving energy day by day.

Dumbo me is still preaching.....know the way but not taking it, incredibly stupid as our escape is turning into a high speed inorganic being and fly off into the infinite at the moment of death when we meet our other self that has been living its own life so to speak.

Magic, freedom and happyness right around the corner, it is all an internal affair.
This predicament, baked in catastrophe of abrupt CC could be the final motivator to get us to break free, go beyond this bubble of our internal dialogue.
Save up, shut up and see for yourself :-D

Waekness of religion is of having to have faith in what others have found to be true instead of being able to verify everything by yourself.
Saving energy is all we need to do, the rest will come by itself.
No need for prophets, dreamers, masters or even teachers except on how to save up, be impeccable which is using your energy strategically, erase self importance, selfpity and become aware of your internal struggle, the battle within yourself, between your two mindsets, the jihad, the war against yourself.
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Re: The Stark Realities of Baked-In Catastrophes

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 30 Jun 2017, 08:00:48

"...having to have faith in what others have found to be true instead of being able to verify everything by yourself..."

For some forms of Buddhism this isn't true so much. See among other works, Buddhism Without Beliefs

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00J3526Y6/re ... TF8&btkr=1

(Sooo, can we get back on topic now? Or do discussions of stark realities always devolve into religious ponderings??)
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Re: True Jihad, the internal one.....

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 30 Jun 2017, 08:04:55

Whitefang wrote:No need for prophets, dreamers, masters or even teachers except on how to save up, be impeccable which is using your energy strategically, erase self importance, selfpity and become aware of your internal struggle, the battle within yourself, between your two mindsets, the jihad, the war against yourself.


There you go Dohboi, Whitefang is bringing the discussion back around to the topic.

I would add that one of the best ways to save and to use less energy is to tune into the natural world. It costs nothing and it is endlessly entertaining and fascinating. It requires minimal use of technology, energy and it nourishes the soul. It reduces aggression, increases mental health and will put you in touch with the earth. You do not have to get into an airplane and fly to Panama to achieve this. The natural world is the sky out your urban window, the migratory bird passing through your manicured back yard, the vegetation widening the cracks in the concrete. It is around you all the time, humming and vibrating.

All those baked in catastrophes can be far better understood when you are rooted into the hum of mother nature since those "catastrophes" really only apply to the disruption it will cause to the trajectory of kudzu ape. Nature adapts endlessly.
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Re: The Stark Realities of Baked-In Catastrophes

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 30 Jun 2017, 08:12:09

dohboi wrote:"It is just a fun mental ..."

Soooo, does that make you a 'Fun duh Mentalist'?

I'm with Buddha...the whole theological issue is mostly beside the point. We have lots of issues of human and other suffering that need immediate attention. It is not clear that more discussions of numbers of angels on pin head will help in dealing with any of that. (I say that knowing that the angels...meme is a gross caricature of Medieval philosophy...but it's still a fun image! :-D )

But....shouldn't we at least be trying to kinda sorta be getting back on some kinda main topic again?

Who's runnin' this madhouse anyway??? 8)

(Ooops, does that get us back into theological discussions again!? :lol: :lol: )


Ethical Humanisim very much fits the description of Buddaisim you use here.

The problem with Ethical Humanisim is that, all their great intentions aside, they still end up counting angles. Endless lectures about social ills. I've been told, in no uncertain terms, that we can not address climate change in a world that tolerates human injustice. So the only path forward it to first eliminate all injustice and in doing so we will make a sustainable world.

I am struggling with that concept. They have put humanity as the center of their universe and can see nothing beyond the human condition.

Not that they are unique in this.
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Re: The Stark Realities of Baked-In Catastrophes

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 30 Jun 2017, 08:19:34

Newfie wrote:

I am struggling with that concept. They have put humanity as the center of their universe and can see nothing beyond the human condition.

Not that they are unique in this.


Entitlement comes in many colors. External consequences are an antidote, think about how human centric religious and humanistic belief systems are and how challenged this will be when external consequences force our species to yield. That very yielding may be a pathway of forced humility that will instill a less entitled relationship with our mother earth.
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Re: The Stark Realities of Baked-In Catastrophes

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 30 Jun 2017, 09:37:32

Ibon wrote:
Newfie wrote:

I am struggling with that concept. They have put humanity as the center of their universe and can see nothing beyond the human condition.

Not that they are unique in this.


Entitlement comes in many colors. External consequences are an antidote, think about how human centric religious and humanistic belief systems are and how challenged this will be when external consequences force our species to yield. That very yielding may be a pathway of forced humility that will instill a less entitled relationship with our mother earth.


Very true all this. It is to me also part of the process of being humbled. To recognize that the capabilities of our species has limits. And humbled so that we all realize that we all can use a helping hand. And this spirit of helping can facilitate better relations among each other
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Re: The Stark Realities of Baked-In Catastrophes

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 01 Jul 2017, 13:56:30

Nice connection, Newf.

Yeah, both are pretty anthropocentric. Some Buddhists to expand the circle to 'all sentient beings' as to who they vow to save. But the main guy was, after all a man, which focuses value on humans (and on males to some extent too...lighter skinned ones at that, from most accounts).

As to Humanists, why people don't see that GW is the greatest injustice in the history of the planet, even if you are just looking at the human sphere, is beyond me.
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Re: The Stark Realities of Baked-In Catastrophes

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 01 Jul 2017, 14:04:24

Ibon wrote: "...External consequences are an antidote..."

We've gone over this ground before, perhaps by now ad nauseum.

But 'external consequences' by themselves pretty much never teach anyone anything.

If you are already deeply enmeshed in magical thinking, as is much of the US public, however horrible the consequences are, you are likely to accept whatever idiotic explanation your leader gives you, which will likely be more designed to keep that leader in power than to enlighten anyone to actual causes. So the next super drought or super heatwave or super deluge will be explained away (as we have seen over and over again) as 'natural,' as God blaming locals for not stoning all gays to death, as God blaming the locals for having any other sinners (or liberals, or Democrats...) amongst them...

There is no end to idiocy, and even the most extreme 'consequences' will not stop power-hungry demogogues from spouting idiocy nor their followers from idiotically swallowing it hook line and sinker.

Don't get me wrong, I would really, really like to believe that the now assuredly and inevitably very, very dire consequences of GW would at least have the somewhat salutary effect of, by themselves, at least somewhat enlightening humanity as to their real place in the universe...I just don't see the evidence that such awakening is likely, much less inevitable.
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Re: The Stark Realities of Baked-In Catastrophes

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 01 Jul 2017, 21:48:27

dohboi wrote:Nice connection, Newf.

As to Humanists, why people don't see that GW is the greatest injustice in the history of the planet, even if you are just looking at the human sphere, is beyond me.


Yeah, I don't know either. But it is some of the agitation between you and I. :-D

My gut tells me it is a matter of time perspective. I've seen that also as a project manager. To be a truly good PM, for the benefit of the project, not the company, you need to be able to look from a future perspective back and say "What would I have done differently then had I known then what I know now?."

That's very difficult for people to do. They want to focus on what is incront of their face, deal with the immediate issue even if it is diminuative.

This may be the greatest failing of our species. It may also be quite in line with Alberts thoughts about the expotential function. We can do the math, we can't accept it in our hearts.
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Re: The Stark Realities of Baked-In Catastrophes

Unread postby dohboi » Sun 02 Jul 2017, 14:54:13

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKn05BbEMcs

Nice presentation on a regional bottle neck I hadn't heard of--Neolithic Northern Eurasian Plague which crashed populations from Siberia to the Baltic around 3000 BC.

(Wasn't sure where to put it, but it seemed no less relevant to the thread than most other posts, and it was a 'stark reality' of a catastrophe! :) :? )

Also relevant: Monika Karmin, et. al. (2015), “A recent bottleneck of Y chromosome diversity coincides with a global change in culture”, Genome Res; 25(4): 459–466, doi: 10.1101/gr.186684.114

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4381518/

(Thanks to ASLR at ASIF for these)
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