[onlooker]

I am making this thread in anticipation of what now appears to be a trend of countries and their governments becoming more entrenched in power even while people are demanding ever more accountability and freedom. It seems like it is two opposing forces. You could say the irresistible force against the immovable object. Maybe this thread can serve for everyone to post links and information regarding this yin/yan dynamic. People especially in a place like Europe are going to respond favorably to migration control and as well as more law and order to protect them from terrorism. On the other hand, if governments impose dictatorship type rule, people in a region like Europe would react strongly. France, Poland and Hungary seem already to be countries that a veering right in the direction of stronger governments. So this is an interesting phenomenon which should only become more pronounced with time given also the underlying threats we all know about including peak oil, economic disruption and climate change.

[SeaGypsy]

For sure we are entering a new era economically & therefore politically.

Given the basis of western socialist largess rapidly failing to keep up with global consumer market desire, there is bound to be an impass.

The 'Strongman' leader model is the system getting ready to defend itself. Buy in is public acceptance that the other option- conciliatory, consensus seeking, income redistributionist model is (for whatever reason sells) not sustainable.

As little as Keynesian economics is mentioned these days, it is the foundation of the modern social democratic state economy, & is totally reliant on basic inputs being almost free. Put a box up, hook up some wires & plumbing, 'pay' the worker enough they can run a car so they think they are 'free' but not enough to ever leave. 'Pay' the utterly unproductive enough to keep consuming but with perpetual envy of the 'free (car owner) class'. Variations on this theme sustain all modern western economies.

The only way the economic model can be sustained is if the bottom 3/4 of the population continue to have no access to the trough, while the trough owners have unfettered access to the resources belonging to those 3/4. This is where the strongman model kicks in.

Terrorism creates & sustains the backdrop for a global succession to strongman (_effectively fascist/ populist high tech hybrids) who get on with the task-

Keep those 3/4 out while taking all their stuff.

[Plantagenet]

France, Poland and Hungary seem already to be countries that a veering right in the direction of stronger governments.

????

The FN wants to take France out of the EU and remove EU controls over France and the currency----that would be moving towards WEAKER government.

Similarly, Hungary is defying the EU and refusing to accept Islamic refugees that the EU says they must take. Again, this is a move to WEAKEN the governing power of the EU.

cheers!

[Cid_Yama]

Only if you accept the premise that being part of the EU makes you stronger. That of course is nonsense. The weaker members are all getting pillaged by built in internal trade imbalances that favor a couple nations over the rest.

It makes Germany stronger, but the Ponzi is coming apart.

[onlooker]

Sea, it looks like you have been watching this video on the Story of Human Enslavement. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbp6umQT58A
Yes we are allowed freedoms in order to remain productive to the ownership class. The problem is that suddenly economic models are falling by the wayside as productivity and growth sputter to a halt. So now the poor masses are looking at the owners squarely in the eyes and saying how come you all have so much while us the masses so little. It now seems that the dysfunctional aspects of this hierarchy system are being abruptly revealed for what they truly are. The ownership class trying deliberately or reflexively to maintain control while the masses become ever more outraged by the greed and excesses of government and their followers, beneficiaries and dependents. All very interesting if it were to be allowed to play out for it's entire duration but I believe that the intrusion of external realities will make all this dynamic a moot point as Peak Oil and Climate Change begin to take front and center.

[onlooker]

Plant I meant to say strongman governments that are pro law and order and pro nationalism/anti-immigration. Defying the EU it not mutually exclusive from this trajectory. In fact with the Schengen laws of the EU, being apart would strengthen national borders.

[SeaGypsy]

Part of the dynamic though Onlooker, is everyone on here is effectively 'ownership class' by our participation in first world economies as 'full citizens'. If we want to (I have done this) we can earn at first world income levels while surviving on developing world spending (live in car/ boat/ tent/ bus/ RV/ squat/ coshare) & spend half our lives gallavanting the planet like royalty. Equity of the global classes is a myth.

[onlooker]

Very good point Sea.

[SeaGypsy]

On a personal level- is it fascist exploitation to do what I described above? Am I a fascist to live by a river in a tent & work 60 hours a week & spend the rest of my hours swimming & dreaming of my next adventure? Am I not doing my own version of what Putin or Trump etc do when I arrange my life like this? Am I not taking full advantage of both situations- high relative earnings- low relative spend- as the oligarchs? Does not really 'owning' anything disclude my participation or am I just choosing differently how to invest my time & energy? Why does this loophole exist & what maintains it?

These are questions I have been over many times, & come to my own compromise on, why you don't find me hating on rich folks for being rich. We are all products of the same system.

[onlooker]

Yes money has created a multi-layered hierarchy. The video I linked though is pertinent to this thread in that as the problems all societies face mount, some may look for strong governments for answers. In some cases they can and will provide at least some answers. On the other hand do we not have ample examples in history of abuse of power. Of course when people are cold or hungry or in anyway in need and relief is provided it matters not much where that relief comes from to those in need. As we go down the path of overshoot I hope all people keep in mind both the tyranny of the few and the tyranny of the many. When I say tyranny of the many I mean especially popular and widely accepted myths, ideas and concepts that may not be as true a we have all thought. I thing is certain is that the world is changing at an accelerating pace.

[Peak_Yeast]

From my experience here in Denmark...

The government are implementing laws to prevent the people from looking into the workings of the government. Information about how money are spent, who does what and so forth are suddenly a state secret.

The government has secret agendas that collide with the "grundlov" (similar to the constitution, I believe). For example the police was informed to arrest and remove people that could insult the chinese premier when he was visiting. Also a lot of money was used to check and remove pro-tibettan grafitti. - But it is not possible to find the people who ordered it nor are any being held accountable. The police officers cannot be identified - and the police has tried to stall any progress.

Also the board that should look into the Iraq war was closed down just before the important people should be interviewed.

Also the laws are changed: A lot of people has gotten huge fines and even gone to prison for tax evasion - but when the statsminister was caught doing the same - suddenly the interpretation of the law changed. And the government then had to release people and pay back fines to ordinary citizens - mind you this was over multiple decade long interpretation of the law that was suddenly changed.

The people in Denmark can now be put under surveillance and even imprisoned without their case ever going before a judge.

The whistleblowers (like snowden) are arrested, threatened and being slandered about in the media. There is even a case where the whistleblower somehow fell out of a window.

Meanwhile the powerful and rich people are generally not subject to the law.

Concerning tax cases: Even if you win a case against the "IRS" you still have to pay for both your own expenses, the courts and the "IRS" expenses. IOW: YOU CANT WIN anything even if you are right.

The IRS has been exposed using methods that are normally considered used by biker-gangs against ordinary citizens. But nothing is being done to prevent it.

And I could go on and on..

Denmark was once a fine country. Nowadays pffft. The public reputation of politicians rate WAY below used car salesmen.

Denmark is indeed a fascist country with dumbed down slaves.

[claman]

peak_yeast, I think you're going a bit too far by calling Denmark a fascist state. Lets call it a very disciplined state, where sometimes the left and sometimes the right are in charge and both sides seamlessly take over the "suppression system" after the other.
A system with regular elections where the ruling parties are changed from time to time is hardly a fascist state.
Maybe you think so because you feel that the danish people in generel are just plane assholes, but that's a quite different thing. In that case they are very democratic assholes.

[sjn]

claman, the Party of Government has little bearing if the System is fascist. You effectively admitted as much. Elections just lend legitimacy.

[claman]

Sjn says "the Party of Government has little bearing if the System is fascist. You effectively admitted as much". And I do admit that, but seen from an "democratic fascist asshole's" point of view, it's actually very democratic and a nice place to live.
You'll have to shout pretty loud though to get heard, because so many people actively take part of the debates.
We have no silent majority or minority, everybody has an opinion and takes care that everybody else knows about it.

[SeaGypsy]

The various international versions of the US Patriot Act & reinforcement of information sharing through the 5 eyes platform really puts the whole developed world in the same catchment described above, if that is any consolation to the Danes.

[onlooker]

So true and even further with the revelations of Snowden as to the extent of the surveillance and eavesdropping going on by the NSA and who know who else we are well on that path of the all encompassing and obtrusive State. Hence this thread as we in the West are particularly sensitive to the abridgement of our freedoms and rights. Yet at the same time some of us paralyzed with fear can welcome the protective Big Brother to keep us safe. This dynamic is not going away if anything it will become more pronounced and salient.

[claman]

Sea, denmark is a little and militarily undefendable patch of land, so when Nato came along, we "praised the lord" and submitted to whatever the US wanted, as long as our souvereignity was guaranteed. Not unlike a lot of other small countries around the world.
We have more or less given up on privacy (echelon etc.) and chosen instead to make a virtue out of necessity and speak our heart rather bluntly.
We have done so at several occasions in EU contexts, but not so much when it comes to the US for the reasons mentioned above.

[Sixstrings]

Just a note about autocracy and fascism or totalitarianism or whatever.. as opposed to constitutionalism..

I'm concerned about the thing in Poland. The far right party got majority in parliament and the presidency, and all the liberals had left was they still had some seats on their equivalent of the US supreme court (they call it the constitutional tribunal).

Well, the right wing party did some moves to pack the court and nullify the court's ability to oversee any constitutional changes the right wing party wants to pass.

Now maybe I don't know all the details, but on the face of it, that kind of thing isn't right.

The way this would work in the US is that change is much slower. Let's say one of our parties has congress and the WH. Well, they can't just "pack the court" to flip the scotus too. (we have had some episodes where that was tried, I think maybe lincoln tried it and FDR tried it but didn't wind up doing it, someone correct me if I'm wrong)

The way our system works is that it protects political minorities and prevents rapid tumultuous change.

So, the only way to turn our supreme court would be decades of all one party in the WH and then okay, eventually all the justices would become that party over time.

That's a better way. Versus one party just shutting down its country's supreme court.

(not to drag my thread into this one, just saying an example of what I would call concerning as far as dictatorish stuff goes)

[onlooker]

Yeah Six, very troubling what is happening in Poland. The move from the right wing party is suggestive of a real attempt to seize unopposed power. Even their trying to oust UN delegation is quite extreme as UN itself noted. As for the US yes our system has some checks and balances between the three branches. The Supreme Court Justices have life-time tenure so that prevents a rapid stocking of the Court with Justices favorable to either the Right or Left.

[KaiserJeep]

Anybody who wishes to understand the fascist nature of the nominally socialist governments of Denmark, Norway, Sweden, etc. should read the excellent and entertaining trilogy of novels by Stieg Larsson (The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo / The Girl Who Played With Fire / The Girl Who Kicked the Hornet's Nest).

If too lazy to read the books, you can get the gist of it by watching the TV miniseries, available for streaming online or on DVD. I have seen and recommend the original Swedish soundtrack with English subtitles, as some details are always lost in the dubbing process. The books remain the definitive version, of course.

As an American who is conscious of and protective of personal freedoms, the degree of government intrusion into private matters that is endured by citizens of the afore-mentioned countries (and other still moving left and getting more socialist) is shocking and saddening. Yet apparently many of the citizens of these countries are largely unaware of the lost privileges and liberties, never having had them during their lives.

It's enough to cause a thinking person to have second thoughts about voting for Bernie Sanders.